From Damage Control to Owning our Mistakes - 26 July 2017

Marlen
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From Damage Control to Owning our Mistakes - 26 July 2017

Postby Marlen » 26 Jul 2017, 21:58

2:06 PM]
joekou good topic


[2:06 PM]
valentin.rozman Hi all :slightly_smiling_face:


[2:06 PM]
marlen k!


[2:06 PM]
brief story first to share to get a context on this


[2:06 PM]
miranda Hi


[2:06 PM]
carlton Hello


[2:06 PM]
marlen set the channel topic: From Denying to Owning our Mistakes - Let's start


[2:06 PM]
marlen I’d like to share a particular situation I walked with another person that I was working with in a simple Project and I started noticing there were a lot of mistakes in it, like spelling mistakes. So I let this other person know about it and I noticed that the first reaction was in a way ‘denial’ like ‘that can’t be, how is it possible! I checked it many times’ which sure can happen to all of us in terms of slipping one or two, but these were quite a few


[2:07 PM]
So, we started talking more about how this had happened or how these many mistakes had slipped through. And the next phase in the explanation that the other person gave was how there were all of these limitations going on for them, like skills-wise, time-wise, not having more people to cross reference and so I saw how in that moment there was more emphasis is explaining the problem, the limitations, the reasons and excuses rather than focusing on ‘what could be done’ from here on again.


[2:07 PM]
marjo hi

[2:07 PM]
talamon Interesting. I saw that pattern also many times.

[2:07 PM]
marlen Now, how I see it is that it’s definitely cool to first acknowledge the reasons ‘why’ we didn’t get to say do something as intended and came out with several ‘mistakes’ – though!

[2:08 PM]
here we’re looking more at how as the person later on shared in our interaction, what emerged within him was more of wanting to ‘not be seen’ as faulty/not good enough/stupid/not skillful enough by others, and so here what was actually then ‘speaking through’ the person was the desire to ‘make up for’ the mistake in a way of excusing it

[2:08 PM]
So I found it very useful to be able to in real time rather look at ways to create solutions to prevent this kind of mistakes in the future, which is something that had not been looked at by the other person in the moment, because what was busy developing in that moment is the necessity to ‘excuse’ oneself, which came through denial/disbelief at the beginning and then it turned into seeing the current limitations as time, skills, ‘man power’ etc –

[2:08 PM]
valentin.rozman It is usually very hard to notice own typing mistakes because we read what expect to be there instead what it actually is

[2:08 PM]
marlen And then realizing aha! I was missing myself AS the solution, because of getting lost in trying to ‘cover up’ this judgment that I hold towards me ‘as the problem’ instead of standing AS the solution


[2:09 PM]
and how that then was 'speaking through' in a need to 'cover up' or 'make up for' or 'excuse' oneself from that, instead of kind of moving into yes acknowledging it, owning the mistake so to speak to then yep, focus on ways to prevent it from here on


[2:10 PM]
so! who can relate with this kind of outflows ? tala does, hehe I have def. done this as well


[2:10 PM]
talamon yes, in my current MC I walk in regarding to how I handle/relate/behave about polarities regarding to money


[2:11 PM]
marlen @valentin.rozman slowing down is actually a way to make sure we can type what we intend, however, here we're not so much looking at 'typing' or the 'mistakes' here, but who one is in the face of recognizing one's mistakes, how we face them/confront that situation of 'being called out' for them


[2:11 PM]
talamon how I kept creating these 'mind-flowers' as excuses, justifications and distractions about it, instead owning and taking responsibility and start standing into the practical solution action


[2:11 PM]
valentin.rozman I can relate to that because I was often criticised for mistakes by my brother and wanted to been seen in the eyes of my father as perfect and he also wanted me to do less mistakes because he treated me as extension of himself and took all mistakes that I made personally.


[2:12 PM]
joekou ah yes cool dimension to look at for sure.


[2:12 PM]
marlen ah cool @talamon yep so not only in terms of 'mistakes' but in general justifying/excusing a pattern, a behavior, definitely, like defending it rather than looking at it as 'hey that's actually cool that it's coming up as something to specify myself in and see 'who I am' in relation to it, like 'fighting for our limitations' type of pattern


[2:12 PM]
joekou where i will first want to make sure nobody is judging me and will want to do 'damage control' first before addressing my responsibility directly

[2:12 PM]
marlen @valentin.rozman so you might have some experience with how you 'dealt with' that criticism as well, what would you say to them when these were pointed out at you?

[2:13 PM]
aha! @joekou that's a better term for this 'damage control' indeed, rather than stepping into self-responsibility

[2:13 PM]
joekou 'i am totally not the person who makes these mistakes. there must be something wrong. there must be some reason for this. but i'll have a look and see even though i know it is not me

[2:13 PM]
marlen set the channel topic: From Damage Control to Owning our Mistakes - Let's start

[2:13 PM]
marjo I saw that yesterday when I received feedback of my DIP assignment that I did not read carefully and had to promise myself to take more care by reading the lessons.

[2:13 PM]
marlen I'm taking it to name this chat hehe

[2:13 PM]
exactly @joekou you got it right there

[2:14 PM]
cool @marjo there you moved into the solution, but was there a reaction before that where you tried to deny it or not believe that you had made a mistake, or did you naturally move into seeing how you can change to create a solution for it?

[2:14 PM]
joekou oh man, all signs point to me. isn't that strange. wow - crazy. well i dont know what they would happen because i dont make these mistakes....

[2:14 PM]
marjo Yes but I saw it was my responsibility and not my buddy's

[2:14 PM]
joekou but sure, i'll fix it this time

[2:14 PM]
lol

[2:15 PM]
marlen hehe yep, so what comes up in me is how whatever we 'want to' come up with towards the other person as 'damage control' is in fact coming from this 'idea' that we want to 'hold' of ourselves as 'perfect, never make mistakes, always on time, always right' right?

[2:15 PM]
joekou yup

[2:15 PM]
miranda yes, right marlen

[2:15 PM]
marlen so if everyone has a look at it and placing yourselves in these shoes of this pattern, what 'comes up' in you as something to 'defend'?

[2:15 PM]
marjo yes Marlen

[2:16 PM]
miranda it wasn't me

[2:16 PM]
joekou there is an instinctual thing of - "how do i get out of trouble" that wants to come up first

[2:16 PM]
valentin.rozman @marlen in order to protect myself for taking all the responsibility for the mistakes in the graphic design and reproduction process due to pressure I suggested to introduce a system of cross-referencing and proofing where several people would check the design before print. That did bring significant improvement but many times there was a hurry to deliver the final products so mistakes still happened.

[2:16 PM]
joekou wanting to protect the image and public opinion of me

[2:16 PM]
marlen to me it's like this energetic-version of 'pride' like no, no way! can't be me! and how I'd physically experience it is similar to righteousness, this very sturdy surge of tension like 'holding myself up' and not wanting to relax an inch of my body lol because that would mean HEY! I have to actually see what the other people are saying/the reality feedback, and let go of my ego!

[2:16 PM]
joekou and but really it has to do with my OWN opinion of myself

[2:17 PM]
marlen yeah ok so that was more of a practical way to create a solution there, cool @valentin.rozman and in terms of how YOU went through it? any points you had to walk through in terms of 'owning your mistakes?

[2:17 PM]
exactly @joekou we can only go into 'defense mode' if we are holding this very righteous idea of 'who I am' as an opinion of self, and sometimes that we tend to project to others as well

[2:18 PM]
joekou where for example i have been unwilling to be self honest in certain points of behavior or patterns - and because i dont want to face it or take responsibility i will allow the story to be 'spun' in a way where i am 'bewildered' and 'surprised' that such a mistake could happen and i somehow be responsible

[2:19 PM]
marlen exactly, surprise, disbelief do come up as in 'how the hell could THAT be possible! can't be! lol which in that moment is already in a way as I see it an insta-denial of one's responsibility to it, because hey mistakes are surely a common and normal part of living, so here it also ties with how we tend to want to 'idealize' ourselves in our minds and that's how any 'mistake' is perceived as a 'weakness' or 'making us less than' the idea/opinion we hold of ourselves



[2:20 PM]
dan I can relate to this pattern, for sure. And only recently have I found myself diffusing the energy to fight and defend myself, to rather breathe and listen and understand and take whatever time I need to do so, if I need extra, I take it, and verbally acknowledge the mistake once I have had adequate time to process it, sometimes, just a breath does it.


[2:20 PM]
marlen so yep, it does boil down to applying self-honesty, which is a great tool/way to jump straight into yep, kind of 'holding our ego-armor' back, taking a breath and deciding to MOVE into that relaxed physical state of yep, it was me, I did it, I own it, let's see how I created it and so how I can correct it


[2:21 PM]
yep @dan how have you experienced this energy, how does it 'physically' feel in you?


[2:21 PM]
talamon cool, dan


[2:21 PM]
dan To live humble and and patience


[2:21 PM]
joekou there is actually a very empowering thing about having that stance of 'i take responsibility' - where you really do it and own it and embrace it


[2:21 PM]
valentin.rozman @marlen basically I accepted the fact that I will make mistakes regardless how much I tried so I did not take it personally end emotionally reacted when any mistake was discovered and pointed out to me. And then, especially in the recent years when I have been working for my father via long distance live screen share, I made sure to slow down enough, be careful about what I type so I made very little mistakes lately.


[2:22 PM]
joekou there is also the polarity version where we try to 'make up' for the mistake and go "oh my god i am so sorry i promise i will never again do this...." but that is just the other side of the coin


[2:22 PM]
marlen yep @joekou that's the other point that living humbleness to acknowledge it actually makes us grow and expand, because then we can even get more ideas from others to sort out the situation, to improve, to expand our skills, to do whatever is needed to 'make things work' not only for oneself but for others involved in it.



[2:22 PM]
cool @valentin.rozman


[2:23 PM]
dan @marlen this energy is very much a rise! From gut to mouth, and it seems I've been kind of catching it at or before it makes it to heart level, haha, and then living patience into understanding.


[2:24 PM]
marlen for example how I would notice this reaction within me where I was being pointed out a mistake is respond as fast as a lightbolt to apologize and change it, but I was in an experience of 'cleaning up the mistake/correcting it asap!' which was also then a desire to not have this 'mistake' be 'lingering on me' unnecessarily long lol, meaning still trying to 'make up for it' through doing it fast and in this 'antsy' mode



[2:25 PM]
right dan, can relate, to me it's been like a sudden stiffening, and yep still working on it whenever I noticed there's something I made a mistake on and this 'surge' comes up, to breathe, yes proceed to correct it, find ways to prevent it, but slooowing down in doing so.


[2:25 PM]
any other examples guys?

[2:25 PM]
dan To add another dimension, for me, my struggle with mistakes has been more one of avoidance, before they (might) happen, and so suppressing myself until I can express myself 'perfectly'. Mistakes after the fact has mostly been a water-under-the-bridge kind of deal for me.


[2:26 PM]
marjo Can relate to that Dan.

[2:27 PM]
dan It's a tough point, I find it very restrictive on my expression.

[2:27 PM]
marlen ah cool point dan, can see that as well, where we don't 'do it' or for example in terms of having someone 'see it' or 'interact with something we do' until we make it entirely 'perfect' in our standards/ideals... and because we perceive that we are 'not yet there' then we rather 'not do it at all'? is that the pattern there?

[2:27 PM]
joekou i remember having to deal with my boss at a previous job - he was seen as a very harsh, intimidating figure and many times people would come up with excuses or try to explain why certain mistakes were made or certain quotas not met - and he would only become more strict, meaner, and harsh.

[2:28 PM]
dan Yeah Marlen, and it's a fine line between this and taking care, being slow and fast

[2:28 PM]
marlen I consider we have discussed several times about the relationship to mistakes and turning that usual 'negative reaction' to them to one of embracing, understanding as part of the process - and here with the dimension that dan shares, it's definitely something to 'rather do' and practice, act upon it rather than 'not doing it at all because fearing mistakes'

[2:29 PM]
joekou i started to change my behavior toward him so that when there was a problem in my department, i would tell him what happened, how it happened, and what we are doing about it - absolutely 'owning it' and not giving any excuses - and he would always be quite respectful toward me lol - i never got his bad side


[2:29 PM]
even when he pushed on a point - i would say 'i dont have an excuse. it was a mistake and we're responding now in this way to fix it'


[2:30 PM]
miranda Nice @joekou taking full responsibility

[2:30 PM]
joekou to not play the game at all of 'i'm so sorry, please dont look down on me, etc.' because to him, his priority is the business, not about our 'friendship' or whether or not he thinks i am a good person

[2:30 PM]
marlen very cool example @joekou I also create a sense of integrity and self-respect whenever I own my mistakes and instead of moving into 'wanting to make up for it' or 'deny' it or whatever else, I rather decide to say Yep! that was me, yes I did it ok let's see how I can correct this - and that's def. the kind of person I want to continue being for sure, transparency and accountability

[2:31 PM]
yeah the 'apologetic' point also indicates another dimension there indeed, another form of 'excusing' oneself in a way while being in a reaction - can be, other times it can be expressed as a genuine consideration for others involved, as with everything: we know 'who we are' and what our experience is within the words we say/actions we do

[2:31 PM]
joekou in a way i think this also developed a trust - where he could in a way 'count on me' to not bullshit him and own my mistakes and take care of my side of the business.

[2:32 PM]
dan I have fun owning my (accidental) farts in small group settings.

[2:32 PM]
marlen dan, the 'fastness' point you mentioned, I have been observing it as well because I tend to be this 'speedy' person right? and I've noticed how upon wanting to 'get things done as fast as possible' then there has also been this 'drive' to 'get it done and over with' instead of having the capacity to yes maybe do something 'fast' but being very present and 'slowed down within me' at the same time

[2:32 PM]
lol dan

[2:32 PM]
joekou yes marlen there is a genuine quality to it when it is coming from a real starting point of consideration, awareness, care.

[2:33 PM]
marlen exactly

[2:33 PM]
and we know when we become apologetic as in placing oneself as a 'rug to be stepped on' kind of self-flagellating type of experience lol

[2:33 PM]
joekou where the consideration is not about self or how self is being perceived. it is a consideration of self's responsibility and consequence

[2:34 PM]
valentin.rozman Another example would be the event two days ago when neighbour’s girlfriend, friend’s daughter and me played using wrap foil at the backyard. The event ended with neighbour’s girlfriend hitting me in the face with metal object so I went to my room and locked myself down. The next day all three had a chat when I realised that friend’s daughter told me to stop wrapping several times because it made her hurt but I did not listen and thought that she was just joking. This is why neighbour’s girlfriend started to hit me with the metal object. I took the responsibility for making the mistake of not listening to friend’s daughter or checking if she meant it seriously so I apologised to her and committed myself to behave differently in the future.

[2:34 PM]
miranda I have found that when making a mistake and just say 'yes I did that' there is no energy involved. It is just what it is and makes the situation more simple for me

[2:34 PM]
marlen yeah, exactly, not about how 'others see it/perceive it' because whatever anyone judges, it's their own point to reflect on - but rather focusing on the physical reality playouts, consequences and so considering others, cool @joekou

[2:34 PM]
joekou it is a 'i see i did this and i understand how i am responsible for it. i apologize because i understand how i affected you' - and not a 'please forgive me! i am not so bad! give me another chance!'

[2:35 PM]
in a way the apology is more a statement of self rather than asking for forgiveness or validation

[2:35 PM]
marlen yep cool @miranda simplifying things is one key point here within accepting the facts, acknowledging responsibility and owning it through creating solutions, preventing the same or practicing on it as time progress. It actually becomes a lot more complex to bring up all the excuses, reasons, justifications, blaming others, time, reality, a program or whatever, so very cool, simplicity is the key indeed


[2:36 PM]
dan Interesting entry point to the fast-slow thing, Marlen. For me, it mostly comes from falling, first with skateboarding then parkour, where the fall may seem fast, but with specificity and focus, it's becomes slow and .."workable" in a sense from my perspective. So, with other areas, I throw myself into the specifics to slow it down, and this process reality faster when it comes.


[2:36 PM]
marlen lol yes @joekou well played out, see! this would be awesome to enact in one of those videos


[2:36 PM]
joekou hint received


[2:37 PM]
marlen lol!

[2:38 PM]
dan *THEN process reality faster when it comes. Which I think is kind of the underworking of all education.

[2:38 PM]
marlen that's a cool example as well dan, and more in the context of body/practicing movements, etc. Also involving the practice that something actually takes to get to 'perfect it' or 'become good at it' in a more 'natural way' which doesn't come as an 'immediate thing' but is something that is worked on, practiced, embracing the trial and error phases

[2:38 PM]
carlton Gtg guy well read rest later

[2:38 PM]
dan Especially with typing!

[2:39 PM]
marlen and there's that other point, where many times we want to 'do things fast, accurate, perfect' from the get go, which is also another dimension that can play out in acknowledging mistakes as going into a polarity of inferiority, not good enough, not having the 'skills' or whatever else, instead of rather embracing it and looking at the solutions, how I can practice, find ways/tools, people's support on this?

[2:40 PM]
it also has to do with how we've become so used to with seeing 'fastness' and 'speed' as some kind of virtue, I wrote a bit on the 'physically slowing down' blog some of my story with this, which was then tied to this 'idea of me' as 'super fast' etc - therefore anything that stood as 'slowness' or 'making mistakes' would be received with that initial shock, disbelief, sense of 'weakness' within me, which I am busy debunking as well lol

[2:40 PM]
joekou i have been the type to always want to create the best right from the beginning - and i would resist anything that took me several tries. then, i started to learn video editing. and boy have i had to walk through the resistance of doing several tries of things

[2:42 PM]
dan I can relate to this. And I'm seeing a solution as adding to my living definition of 'humble' - to be more on the proactive side with it and asking for help more readily.


[2:42 PM]
joekou but now what i have learned is with each hurdle or mistake or problem i have to go back and fix, i grow and expand and more and more i become closer to the 'perfection' i would like to be


[2:42 PM]
so if things dont turn out perfect the way i want the first run - i keep going because the failure is only real if i stop

[2:42 PM]
marlen yep cool example there @joekou can relate to getting comfortable with 'starting overs' and not seeing that as a 'waste of time' but more as an opportunity to learn from the mistakes, to go finding new ways I probably would not have discovered if I hadn't just pushed myself to 'do it' in the first place

[2:43 PM]
joekou yes

[2:43 PM]
marlen @dan yes, cool point there, not only 'wanting to sort it out myself' but yes! living humbleness and using the resources available, including people's support in it - no man's an island as its said, I've been there/done that where 'I want to deal with things by myself' is essentially a point of ego, not realizing how much I can in fact learn and enjoy from having others' input on it as support that I can take with me and live

[2:44 PM]
valentin.rozman Nice example of owning the mistakes is also while playing badminton with the neighbours. I started to observe myself when I did miss the ball or returned it in imperfect direction if that was because I was in my mind and not enough focused or if there were some other factors like the wind or sun disturbing my perception of direction. So I play now with intention of making sure that I am fully present, that I make effort to hit the ball as perfect as possible and to recognise when I am in the thinking mode that distracts my attention.

[2:44 PM]
marlen "so if things dont turn out perfect the way i want the first run - i keep going because the failure is only real if i stop" - very cool! yep not seeing mistakes as failure, but seeing that failure exists if we entirely give up on it - awesome @joekou

[2:45 PM]
dan If we don't allow ourselves to make mis-takes, we wouldn't even be able to walk process...because we'd have no mistakes to process!

[2:45 PM]
marlen yeah cool dimension there as well @valentin.rozman with being distracted or in essence not being present, thinking on something else/wanting to be doing something else in that moment which is also another dimension that causes us to make mistakes - so, cool example there on the practice it involves in sports


[2:47 PM]
yep if we create a problematic relationship to acknowledging our mistakes, we miss taking the example as something we can improve, practice from, learn from, we miss that moment of reality where we could 'reverse engineer' the situation and see Ah that's how I created that one mistake, so now I can test this other thing out and see how it goes


[2:47 PM]
joekou lol i've had many dances with the 'giving up' pattern. enough to know even when we do 'give up' for a moment it doesn't define us unless we stay there.

[2:48 PM]
dan Yes, and the shame and judgement that I've witnessed keeping me in mistake holding-patterns.

[2:48 PM]
joekou and the same goes for people who we might judge as having 'given up' - people who see to have walked away - that does not define them unless they stay that way forever

[2:48 PM]
dan Judging the mistakes is one of my biggest mistakes.

[2:48 PM]
joekou so someone who walks away or takes a more consequential path is not necessarily someone who is 'lost' or beyond help

[2:48 PM]
marlen yep, up to us at all times to define how 'long' we 'uphold' this idea of ourselves to not keep trying something out, even the word 'uphold' already looks like having to carry, sustain with effort, which is how it feels when having to be excusing/explaining all the stuff to 'save face' as it's said, like save that ego/opinion of myself at the eyes of others, so that would be the one point to look at there

[2:49 PM]
lol @dan yep that's a common one, in terms of judgment, and on 'judgment' def. cool to check out the latest jesus interviews on 'redefining physical' as well

[2:49 PM]
joekou yes definitely cool to hear that dimension of the message again

[2:50 PM]
dan Sweet! I got the 1st one in me :)

[2:50 PM]
marlen as a last point and practical way to shortcut the damage control phase of 'denial/suprise/shock/disbelief' phase of excuses, reasons and justifications - and upon noticing this need to 'excuse my mistakes' I rather ask ok, what idea of myself am I protecting there? what of myself am I preventing to 'damage' this 'idea of who I am' and why do I consider it a 'damage'?

[2:51 PM]
any last pointers guys?

[2:51 PM]
adam That I am in a learning process here

[2:51 PM]
valentin.rozman Idea of being a perfectionist

[2:52 PM]
marlen yep perfectionism indeed a 'biggie' one to look at if/when this point opens up in our lives

[2:52 PM]
valentin.rozman Desire of my father being proud of me

[2:52 PM]
marlen cool point @adam I def. also now equate 'making mistakes = to learning process'

[2:52 PM]
valentin.rozman Wanting others to accept me, to like me, to pay me money, to keep myself surviving in this world

[2:53 PM]
marlen yep @valentin.rozman indeed how 'others see us' or the idea that we want to 'project' towards others, instead of rather becoming that which we see is best for ourselves, and so others, through the actual practice, doing, living, not as an 'ideal' in our heads/ego

[2:53 PM]
and def. so, can be linked to survivalism for sure

[2:53 PM]
dan When that rise comes, and we miss the point of self-honesty. Make sure to write about it and gain the clarity of the situation and point of self-responsibility to live the correction, and even sharing with those involved if appropriate.

[2:53 PM]
miranda Thank you @marlen for opening up this point.

[2:54 PM]
marlen sure thing I thank the person with whom I opened up this point as well! otherwise I would not have been able to open it up here


[2:54 PM]
I also noticed it in my nephew, how as a child, he goes into denial of it, instead of rather seeing the peace, the simplicity of acknowledging it and say 'yep I did it' and work on the consequences.


[2:54 PM]
as well


[2:54 PM]
adam so the spelling mistakes had a purpose lol marlen



[2:54 PM]
dan Lol


[2:54 PM]
marlen LOL there you go @adam yes indeed!


[2:55 PM]
it's definitely about also how we change the way we look at things, from 'right/wrong' and all of the associations around it, to learning from it, seeing 'who we are' in it


[2:55 PM]
awesome, thanks guys for sharing your own experiences/feedback, many dimensions to it


[2:55 PM]
we got some nice 'life hacks' in this for this kind of rather common situations


[2:56 PM]
miranda Thanks marlen, and all, bye!


[2:56 PM]
marlen yep sure thing, see you guys! and thanks for sharing


[2:56 PM]
marjo Thanks Marlen cool points bye bye


[2:56 PM]
adam thanks everyone bye


[2:57 PM]
valentin.rozman Thanks Marlen and all, bye :slightly_smiling_face:


[2:57 PM]
dan If other's perceive a mistake I am making or have made, to activate patient curiosity and me as a learner, and not taking anything personal, which isn't always so easy. This is how I'm handling these situations currently. Thanks for opening this up in chat.


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[2:57 PM]
Bye all



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