The Helper Complex - 18 October 2017

Marlen
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The Helper Complex - 18 October 2017

Postby Marlen » 18 Oct 2017, 22:04

1:51 PM]
sunettedimensions set the channel topic:


[2:00 PM]
kims Hello


[2:01 PM]
dan Hi! Great topic.


[2:01 PM]
carlton Hello


[2:02 PM]
valentin.rozman Hi all :slightly_smiling_face:


[2:02 PM]
tormod hi guys !!


[2:04 PM]
carlton Hey Tormod

[2:04 PM]
marjo Hello


[2:04 PM]
adam Hi

[2:05 PM]
sunettedimensions set the channel topic: The Helper Complex - WE START


[2:05 PM]
tormod hey mr Carlton !

[2:05 PM]
carlton Lol

[2:06 PM]
joanajesus ohhh this topic is SO me


[2:06 PM]
lol @sunettedimensions

[2:07 PM]
valentin.rozman I have done a lot to reduce my helper complex to minimum and I will do even more about it


[2:07 PM]
lysander Cool topic

[2:07 PM]
kimk Hello

[2:07 PM]
sunettedimensions The other day, I had an interesting point open up in the car when taking Joe for a doctor's appoint to double check whether his symptoms was flu / tick bite fever - where I asked him SO many different questions of "can I do this / that to support" can I buy you this / that and how about we stop here / there LOL - and EVERY single time he said NO, I'm good / fine


[2:07 PM]
lysander Hi guys

[2:08 PM]
dan lol

[2:08 PM]
kims Lol :joy: yep

[2:08 PM]
sunettedimensions So, as this continued - with me asking "what can I do to help" and him saying "no, don't need it" I started laughing

[2:08 PM]
marjo lol

[2:09 PM]
kims How is he btw?

[2:09 PM]
sunettedimensions and telling him, "you know what, if I weren't me - I can imagine someone who has a helping complex would get VERY annoyed with you right about now. WHY WON'T YOU LET ME HELP YOU!!! type of experience"

[2:09 PM]
joekou i am alive and well *spoiler*

[2:09 PM]
sunettedimensions @kims he's 100% now


[2:09 PM]
kims Coolio!

[2:09 PM]
Lol joekou

[2:10 PM]
mattifreeman lol

[2:10 PM]
kims Yes I can imagine @sunettedimensions

[2:10 PM]
sunettedimensions So, eventually I said to him "how about a bottle of water" and he finally said yes lol, but we did it very jokingly and I said to him "YES!!! I got something!"

[2:10 PM]
kims Lol

[2:11 PM]
valentin.rozman lol

[2:11 PM]
joanajesus "you wont let me help you" very interesting way of seeing the side of the helper

[2:11 PM]
lysander lolol

[2:11 PM]
yoganb haha

[2:13 PM]
sunettedimensions Though, reflecting on this - a very similar programming was existent in my mother, the ENERGY behind / within wanting to help is VERY SUBTLE, but at the same time, the more you want to help and the help is not received - an energy of annoyance / reaction can emerge / feeling like you're not good enough / not doing enough


[2:14 PM]
So, this is an interesting programming within HELP we can open up

[2:14 PM]
the "mother construct" in the word help

[2:14 PM]
So, who can relate to becoming motherly / overzealous when WANTING TO HELP another


[2:14 PM]
and how has your experience in it been?

[2:14 PM]
How does it make you FEEL?


[2:14 PM]
kims I must say it's something I have never experienced/ in that annoyance

[2:14 PM]
dan lol

[2:15 PM]
this really resonates for me


[2:15 PM]
lysander cool stuff - very 'understandable' system


[2:15 PM]
sunettedimensions What in you becomes satisfied when another receives your help?


[2:15 PM]
marlen I can relate to the experience but what comes up is not annoyance, but more disempowerment when seeing people struggle and knowing I cannot directly change their experience, so that has been a point wherein then I try and find other ways to 'make the person feel better' because of not being able to change their direct experience.

[2:15 PM]
marjo Yes I feel disappointed when someone has problems and I offer my support, and they don't want it.

[2:15 PM]
valentin.rozman In my family it was more my father who strived to prove himself by helping others in all kinds of ways

[2:16 PM]
kims I can annoy others by going on too much, so I see that subtly there must be a need in me to want others to find me helpful lol

[2:16 PM]
joanajesus the system of being heard for example, when people take action based on my advice and I have the experience of worthiness

[2:16 PM]
marlen this can also lead to acting in the whim of a moment and not practically assessing what one is actually able to practically do, but attempt the 'impossible' in order to 'be useful' for the person for example or do something that will 'help' them in whichever way we are believing our actions will assist them

[2:16 PM]
kims But I don't actually experience being annoyed if they don't

[2:16 PM]
kimk Yes - In my experiece it has been about proving I care, or proving how much I care, whereas, if I hold back in saying 'let me know if you need anything' - I would have a reaction like 'they must think I don't care because I am not taking care of them'

[2:17 PM]
ida i'm looking, cant see it like that right now, maybe in another way.. can more relate to marlen

[2:17 PM]
lysander Cool, so two polar opposite reactions towards the same issue: one reacts with 'up' behavior (anger etc.) and the other with 'down' behavior (disempowerment, sadness etc.)

[2:17 PM]
dan I have also seen this programming in my mother, and grandmother, and in myself. I feel love when my help is received. I give to get love, acceptance, support - within a starting point that I'm not worthy of these, just as I am.

[2:17 PM]
valentin.rozman And the preferred way of helping others was a surprise tactic meaning that he helped others without others even wanting to be helped resulting many times even in anger from those that he wanted to help.

[2:17 PM]
marjo I feel important, worthy when someone accepts my support.

[2:17 PM]
kims I find I can be lazy as well in my words - where I ask if I can help - and hope that they say no, which is interesting

[2:17 PM]
marlen What is satisfied as a programming here? The desire of being 'useful' or 'cooperative' or 'supportive' though without having a clear starting point, but acting more in the moment in order to 'do my part' or 'help in whichever way I can'

[2:18 PM]
sunettedimensions Ahhh yes @marjo also a good example there! when you react in disappointment - so, one then has to ask "what did you WANT TO FEEL / what feeling did you want to GET from helping?"

[2:18 PM]
Ahhh saw your message now @marjo

[2:18 PM]
carlton The experience I have with wanting to help came with wanting to please someone, for me to be seen as cool, but the help I offered was real in a sense.

[2:18 PM]
sunettedimensions \Cool @marjo so now you can look at redefining and living those words for YOU, not to WAIT to get them from helping others only and only FEEL that for a moment


[2:18 PM]
dan cool

[2:18 PM]
kims Like I believe I should ask

[2:19 PM]
marlen I've also noticed some cultural programming when it comes to insisting in helping, assuming that the other person is not accepting such 'help' based on not wanting to make another uncomfortable or compromise, so in that I see where there's this 'insisting' on it pattern as well, until I realize ok, that means really 'no thank you' lol

[2:19 PM]
marjo cool sunettedimensions, will do that

[2:19 PM]
kims When I actually have no intention of asking - I have just seen this

[2:19 PM]
Intention of helping I mean

[2:20 PM]
sunettedimensions Very cool dimension @marlen

[2:20 PM]
ida yes @kims like an obligation to help

[2:20 PM]
kims Yes Ida - like the right thing to do

[2:20 PM]
Being polite

[2:20 PM]
joanajesus @kims I wonder if that's something more common in the UK where people ask if people are OK without really waiting for the answer. I see that a lot

[2:20 PM]
ida yes

[2:20 PM]
sunettedimensions Understand all, you may not relate to this NOW - though, may have a moment in a relationship with another come up that exposes similar programming to what everyone here is sharing

[2:21 PM]
kims Yes joana

[2:22 PM]
marlen yep @ida that sense of 'it's the good thing to do' morality point, or even 'polite' or based on other kinds of cultural programming there, instead of practically assessing what can I in fact do that is realistic and not compromising me in this moment? or that I am able to/know how to etc. so many variables to this

[2:22 PM]
joanajesus in other cultures, for example more southern european people tend to show more care for another, and making the time to help another. Now here I also see the construct of help as a point of giving meaning to one's life...

[2:22 PM]
ida yes @marlen

[2:22 PM]
kims Yes @marlen

[2:22 PM]
kimk Fulfilling that mothering role feels like an itch that just needs to be scratched in order to get this good feeling, feeling needed, depended on, relied upon, like, to prove that my presence will make your life better, like a home, more enjoyable and safe - this is what I also experience

[2:22 PM]
darrylthomas Deedra does that, lol. And yes, sometimes my reaction is, damn you and your genuine concern for my welfare

[2:23 PM]
marlen it sure can be redefined there @joanajesus what I see is that I have to be clear in my decision to co-operate or actually contribute in a way that is not compromising me or that is coming from a 'needy' or 'worrysome' part of myself

[2:23 PM]
carlton Lol

[2:23 PM]
lysander spot on @kimk

[2:23 PM]
joanajesus yes @sunettedimensions when my partner is down and I try to help but there is no response or not really the acceptance of help I end up reaction, which it adds more layers rather then being part of the solution. I have been learning to accept that my help may not happen when I offer it but when I am asked to help

[2:24 PM]
mattifreeman one dimension also is where someone not needing your help can be interpreted as being rejected

[2:24 PM]
marlen lol @kimk yeah like a 'valuable asset' type of worth, instead of seeing it as a point of self-worth, personal capacities that are simply shared in our environment, as our expression, without attempting to 'fulfill' something or be in that 'helper' mentality constantly

[2:24 PM]
mattifreeman or that your help is not valued

[2:24 PM]
or seen as valid

[2:25 PM]
kims Yes @mattifreeman

[2:25 PM]
mattifreeman and if you're defined through your actions of helping, as in "I AM helpful" = then you'll feel invalid and rejected

[2:25 PM]
kimk And if my help is turned down, it is like, a coldness, like, I see have have taken it personally in the past, where it feels more like a team or unit when there is that help, and a separation and distance when it is not accepted

[2:25 PM]
yes @marlen - exact

[2:25 PM]
kims I have actually accepted another's help so they don't feel bad towards me

[2:25 PM]
marlen yep that's another cool dimension matti, I can relate to that a lot as a child for example when not having the skills to do something, that over time piled up into this sense of 'not good enough to support'

[2:25 PM]
mattifreeman instead of realizing that helping isn't Who I Am - it's a function of providing assistance where a need exists

[2:26 PM]
and if the need doesn't exist - then no help is required

[2:26 PM]
joanajesus yes @marlen one's starting point; I have seen many cases where people help others and end up compromising their own well being and even losing money out of it; so the help that they gave to others was a mirror of the help they should give to themselves first and then stand as an example for others


[2:26 PM]
marlen lol yep

[2:26 PM]
tormod is it not about the questions asked ? like there is no wrong answer only "wrong" question, it is about slowing down... self intergity...

[2:26 PM]
sunettedimensions Definitely @mattifreeman that's a cool dimension to look at as well

[2:27 PM]
marlen yep @joanajesus exactly, and I found that to in my case be cultural programming, where people can end up without their own basics covered OH but they helped or did this/that for others... so very prominent point indeed to be aware of


[2:27 PM]
kimk But when I am sick, I can recall it taking a lot of energy just to explain what I don't need, constantly saying no, because all I want is sleep and to be alone, so it is not personal

[2:27 PM]
dan The importance and value I give to being 'helpful' to others, seems largely due to my not valuing myself, and rather trusting others to dictate my value, trying to find a stable sense of who I am ONLY by what others reflect back to me about me.

[2:28 PM]
marlen yeah @tormod exactly there's no right or wrong, but simple assessment whether help can be taken, help can be offered - either way - and if not, cool, letting it go. For example in my case 'insisting' on it comes more from a learned habit at home, where I am more speaking from a 'broken record' programming, rather than taking a moment and assessing the actual capacity/possibility for me to assist/help

[2:29 PM]
kims Yes @marlen

[2:29 PM]
carlton Gtg guys, work will read rest later

[2:30 PM]
marlen right @kimk I can relate to that when seeing people in 'personal crisis' in the past, where there was a part of me that wanted to almost 'sort their lives out' right there and then believe that 'my presence' wasn't being 'enough' for them to sort it out, so taking it personal basically, making it personal instead of realizing: it was their point/their thing, I had to give that space. So here another pattern is being 'overbearing' in those moments with trying to help, almost 'asphyxiating' another

[2:30 PM]
joanajesus there is also the programme of saying automatically no when help is offered and based on that I have insisted to help - now I see that that is something that I also tend to do, so my attitude of asking again is something that I want another to do for me, for example. Very cool exercise of bringing back to self.

[2:31 PM]
marlen and it goes both ways as well when one is then rejecting such help out of pride or whatever instead of embracing such offer and giving it a go

[2:32 PM]
lol @joanajesus yeah I can recognize such conditioning

[2:32 PM]
tormod yea breaking down to common sense is cool marlen. though the stand or - not so, within common sense may not be the same. like i can try to make common sense of me helping - proving self. but the "right" thing to do in common sense would perhaps be something else... like wavering in my stand... not cool. and also we see maaany people claming common sense or sublime and cultural programing so... like what most media is accused for today.

[2:32 PM]
sunettedimensions So, what would everyone say we can do in the MOMENT when we recognize the energy, the sound of your voice going to into a HELPING PATTERN than a self expression of support? How can we direct change in REAL TIME in a MOMENT ASAP?

[2:32 PM]
marlen and it comes because we are not used to 'readily' admitting a yes or a no as an actual practical assessment in the moment, at least I can see this point you mention linked with the 'insisting' pattern, as if there was this 'rule' that the more you insist, the more we will eventually convince another to 'accept the help' etc.

[2:33 PM]
kimk I remembered having written a blog about this in the past, so I found it, I'll share here: http://kimsjourneytolife.blogspot.com/2 ... -self.html
kimsjourneytolife.blogspot.com
Day 104- Being Helpful: From Self-Interest to Actual Caring
This is continued from Day 103-Defending Myself Against the World I commit myself to check my starting point when I contribute to the... (25kB)

[2:33 PM]
sunettedimensions For me, I have realized it's not so much the ASKING whether I can help / support - the care is there, it's WHO I AM in it

[2:33 PM]
joanajesus cool @kimk

[2:33 PM]
darrylthomas May also be take the word of the "helpee" is fine without assistance at face value

[2:34 PM]
marlen practically assessing: what am I actually able to do to help in this moment, is it in my capacity, can I 'afford' it in whichever way, am I in the position that I can contribute with cooperating/helping with it - first of all, because that will then dissolve the 'neediness' in a moment. That then makes helping a practical assessment, not a matter of 'doing the right thing/saying the right thing' to support another

[2:34 PM]
joanajesus in those moments, to identify what recognition I am looking after; and letting that go, so that I can genuinely express help/assistance to another

[2:34 PM]
yoganb I can see myself playing out this helpful complex when I am taking the role of a teacher/tutor, and a parent. Where I derive a sense of purpose and accomplishment as this being who I am, and feeling good. I can see this would be a distraction from what I really feel and experience myself as. Hence, I can see myself feeling pissed, angry and frustrated when I can't distract myself through helping. Because how I really feel is not good, whole, me.

[2:34 PM]
tormod yes to me @sunettedimensions is to see from where in my body comes this urge - it should come from my body not my mind....

[2:35 PM]
sunettedimensions WHO I AM is an energy within / behind the wanting to help I want to get / have instead of just fulfilling myself / being fulfilled in asking - whether I receive a yes/ no. So, whenever I ask to offer my help / support: I can check in my voice and experience whether I am clear. If not, I can ask myself what energy do I WANT TO GET from offering my help, get the WORD I want to fulfill as a FEELING and ensure to when I can redefine it for myself. Then breathe and remind myself I am fulfilled in the MOMENT of simply ASKING whether I can support


[2:35 PM]
kims I ask myself first what would I want ? And then I assess whether I am able to offer the kind of support that is needed and if my offer is rejected I don't allow myself to take it personally.

[2:35 PM]
tormod it should be grounded and firm not wavering and energetic

[2:35 PM]
joanajesus @yoganb indeed, the programme of helping can be bery distractive, like entertainment

[2:35 PM]
mattifreeman it's like - there's helping as a self expression, and helping as something you create a relationship to a person through

[2:35 PM]
ida "there is also the programme of saying automatically no when help is offered and based on that I have insisted to help" @joanajesus what do you mean with this one?

[2:35 PM]
marlen yep to identify the almost 'anxious' desire to ask if we can help, instead of stabilizing, assessing where we're at in the moment and then proceeding to offer support with what we can in fact do


[2:36 PM]
valentin.rozman Yes, for me too is about changing my starting point of desiring recognition from other to checking every time if a help is actually needed and also asking and then accepting the answer without any emotional reaction.

[2:37 PM]
darrylthomas That's interesting. I never really considered people may be in search of an energetic exchange when offering to help others

[2:37 PM]
marlen yep, that's another important point to apply understanding and 'giving space' for another if they say 'no thanks' to the offering of help, if anything moves, then that's a point for self-work

[2:37 PM]
tormod "anxious" realy @marlen ... i see that to huh !

[2:37 PM]
that would be to addict to it

[2:37 PM]
marlen and in my case, being aware of not going into the drunken insistence lol, very much culturally learned

[2:38 PM]
kimk Ican, in the moment take a moment to clear the energy and starting point to a genuine offer of support, supporting another as myself, and then if they say yes or no, can cross reference with myself by seeing if there is any movement when receiving the answer

[2:38 PM]
marlen but instead apply understanding, give space, let go

[2:39 PM]
ida ahh @joanajesus, I think I get it.. Like not wanting to bother or be a burden so one says no to offered help, and then would like them to insist on giving it anyway. Like putting it on them instead of being upfront about it

[2:39 PM]
joanajesus @ida yes! Saying no but meaning yes

[2:39 PM]
ida lol yes @joanajesus

[2:39 PM]
kims Yes that's an English thing @joanajesus

[2:40 PM]
Don't want to bother anyone lol

[2:40 PM]
joanajesus nice one @valentin.rozman to check if we are helping another or actually wanting to help ourselves


[2:40 PM]
kimk Some cultures, like China, it is customary to say 'no' 5 times before saying 'yes' - to make sure the offer was genuine


[2:40 PM]
marlen @ida yep that's where one can learn then to be genuine in assessing that yes or no as a matter of reality, instead of playing the games of 'you have to insist me more' or 'you have to really mean to help for me to accept it' or whatever else, because then we perpetuate this conditioning when we offer help and viceversa, doing it out of a good thing/compromise without making a reality assessment

[2:41 PM]
ah there you go @kimk that definitely is a cultural thing, can totally see that. And that's why when a person from such culture then relates to someone that is used to saying genuinely 'no', clashes come, so, makes sense to deprogram such conditionings within self and genuinely mean our yes or no's

[2:42 PM]
kimk Yes, because each has a family culture they were brought up within, so that could have varying degrees of the same issue

[2:43 PM]
dan lol @darrylthomas seem like you don't have this programming.!

[2:43 PM]
joekou lol i remember doing business with chinese clients. man oh man there is so much theater involved

[2:43 PM]
darrylthomas No, I was gifted with an upbringing where motherly programming was in short supply


[2:43 PM]
marlen yep, I had that coming up when having a relationship with someone that was very laconic in their expression, so I def. had to face a lot of 'bumps on the road' when perceiving their 'no' as dismissive, instead of realizing that was just their way to say things - not taking personally their tonality or 'shortness' in expression

[2:44 PM]
joanajesus gifted lol @darrylthomas

[2:44 PM]
kimk So maybe you can test out being a little insistant, to see if it is the person just being polite and not trying to put you out... and then build that understanding and relationship

[2:45 PM]
where you kow how to approach the person in the future

[2:45 PM]
joekou some people don't take kindly to kindness lol

[2:45 PM]
marlen nah, I'd leave it to each one to genuinely create such leeway to change their mind and say 'ok I'll take your help' or whatever

[2:45 PM]
darrylthomas Deedra, on the other hand, oodles of motherly programming. So im catching up dealing with it

[2:45 PM]
tormod to my awarenss is the wanting to help, a certain program. cause help must come from within (self/person/patient) - meaning i can have assistance and support and guiding... but the help must come from within self.... like help can in fact not REALLY be given... love/life must come from within self.... part of believe structure why prostitution is allowed etc etc

[2:45 PM]
marlen yep that's also a point @joekou and eventually it's a matter of getting to know/understand the person as well, so it depends

[2:46 PM]
sunettedimensions What would also support, I'd say, which Joe did is to also share / explain his perspective

[2:46 PM]
Meaning, after the second time or so I asked / offered help he shared his stance in his experience, how he was feeling, what he was going through

[2:46 PM]
that communication / openness allowed me to understand more

[2:47 PM]
kims Yes learning to accept help is a problem fir me

[2:47 PM]
sunettedimensions So if you are on the receiving end of someone offering help - do consider they may not understand your experience, so do shar,e open up, let them see where you're at

[2:47 PM]
Sometimes we could be offering help, not realizing we do not yet understand the other


[2:47 PM]
valentin.rozman Makes sense

[2:47 PM]
sunettedimensions in their position / experience

[2:48 PM]
joekou yes that is an important point that is easy to miss. we assume way too much either on the giving or receiving end

[2:48 PM]
darrylthomas Yeah, that's a good rule of thumb, for sure

[2:48 PM]
marlen yep! explaining, opening up always assists with clarifying for sure, communication is the key

[2:49 PM]
joekou sometimes saying no to everything being offered is really not enough - so explain the 'no'. like 'no i dont want that because X'. and this way you won't feel like you're being rude and the other person wont feel like you're dismissing them

[2:50 PM]
because they might be taking it personally and you wouldn't know it and so they may end up asking you more - because they really don't know what is wrong and they are left with maybe assuming what is wrong is 'themselves' somehow. that's not a cool experience

[2:51 PM]
adam being supportive of that No that comes is cool - often I've felt grateful for that clear No

[2:51 PM]
kims I always say thank you for your offer but right now I am not in need of xyz

[2:52 PM]
joanajesus children are a good reference as they seem to be genuine when need help and when they dont need help - and are more direct than most of the political correct adults


[2:52 PM]
marlen yeah that's a cool point @joekou about being on the receiving end, if we see insistence then giving context to leave things clear for the other, as a point of consideration to them

[2:52 PM]
kimk Yes, that is a cool point about explaining yourself to open up understanding and communication - explaining what is best for you in the moment so the other understands and can then support with that

[2:52 PM]
dan some well-rounded perspective here!

[2:53 PM]
joekou i used to play the game of 'oh no thanks not now maybe later' but really i didn't want it at all, ever, and i wanted to 'spare' them from feeling bad due to my own projections

[2:53 PM]
marlen oh and another point, also for those of us conditioned in 'insistence' to then check ourselves if we reject help at first and are Expecting the other to 'insist' lol, won't happen, and one has to then understand yep, they're direct, not playing the 'insistence' game there, not taking it as 'they didn't really want to help me' type of thing

[2:53 PM]
kimk I would sometimes automatically say /no/ and then immediately regret it, like 'wait, I actually DO want that!'

[2:54 PM]
sunettedimensions Agreed M

[2:54 PM]
joekou like i was pitying the other instead of finding a way to be clear about why i dont want something or how they might do something different that i might want

[2:54 PM]
marlen then can actually say wait no, I do want help! and open it up @kimk that's the way to start changing the trend

[2:54 PM]
kimk Yes, true @marlen, like learning from that regret and speaking up about it

[2:55 PM]
ida yes keeping them on a leash in a way lol @joekou

[2:55 PM]
marlen all of these 'politeness' bs man now I'm seeing it, makes everything so complex, that's why acting and speaking from a clear common sense starting point simplifies everything


[2:55 PM]
joanajesus often times when I offer help to Joao and he "refuses" it makes a difference when he explains why, for example, that he first wants to write the point and identify the points before sharing with another -- which is valid and it's not about refusing help but rather wanting to help oneself first

[2:55 PM]
marlen yeah @kimk no point in regret lol, just 'change your mind' in that moment and embrace it


[2:56 PM]
kimk Yes - showing yourself that you will support you instead of playing politeness games, choosing support over regret

[2:56 PM]
lysander Right on @marlen

[2:57 PM]
yoganb Insecurity plays a role, where if I'm insecure, I can be rude in saying no.

[2:58 PM]
marlen yeah that's a point to then clear up first within self, though def. another dimension that plays a role there yogan

[2:58 PM]
lysander I have had to deal with quite some politeness shit - it can be very extensive and self-compromising. brrr

[2:58 PM]
Like, it's polite to be uncomfortable in someone else's presence

[2:58 PM]
WTF

[2:58 PM]
marlen so it's got to do a lot with how we face our own points, if we are direct, clear with ourselves, then we have no problem in expressing that to others, though some might need some extra context in embracing such frank, direct stance - that's where the explaining 'where we're at' comes handy as it was explained by joe above


[2:59 PM]
and in my case also then asking for further information if possible, sometimes I can be very inquisitive, and also have to be ok if the person is not willing to share 'the whole point' atm, so multiple considerations there

[3:01 PM]
ok so I guess that's it for today, cool points opened up, many dimensions to look at, so thanks for that

[3:01 PM]
joekou thanks all

[3:01 PM]
kimk Cool chat all

[3:01 PM]
marjo thanks all bye

[3:01 PM]
kimk bye!

[3:01 PM]
lysander Bye


[3:01 PM]
joanajesus yes, very cool to become aware of the programme and to change it to benefit everyone


[3:01 PM]
adam thanks everyone


[3:01 PM]
bye


[3:02 PM]
marlen bye guys!


new messages
[3:02 PM]
ida bye bye



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