so, guys any topic, pick up a word, something we can look at together !
blazcegnar how about sacrifice
marlen k, cool, can you give some context to it? in relation to ?
blazcegnar no lol, it just came to mind as a word to look at / redefine
sacrifice the ego for what is best for all
marlen well if there's no other word we can write out what each one relates to currently when it comes to sacrifice and start sharing to see what opens up?
adam lighting fires, guy fawkes
blazcegnar for me to sacrifice is to give away something that one can decide to give away or not take/use by one's own choice
marlen I can relate to 'sacrifice' as a perceived noble thing to do, where you have to 'give up' something that is considered of 'personal interest' for 'the greater good', though in that, I also realized how much morality was involved in it and actual self-neglect was perpetuated based on that idea of 'I have to sacrifice myself to be there for others/ focusing on change out there' or 'have to say NO to any personal interest' and that definitely got me to the point of becoming quite dissatisfied and bitter ultimately about my life
joanajesus Sacrifice - I associate with its religious connotation, whereby people sacrifice their lives and their direction to please others, including a god.
marlen so in my case it was 'renouncing' to anything I had associated as 'self interest' and making that something noble or honorable... quite the construct there, which I've now associated with the mother-theresa construct I've written about lately, where I was missing myself, my self creation in the equation, so that's what opens up when looking at sacrifice and realizing that I don't have to exist in such way to still live in a principled manner, because in denying/sacrificing myself as in 'limiting' myself - based on that definition - I was for sure going to get nowhere in actual self-creation and self-change
blazcegnar in a way we are constantly sacrificing ourselves to the mind
marlen yes @joanajesus I had that very similar thing, where this 'god' became 'for the betterment of everyone else/for the greater good' BUT not including myself in the equation, so kind of being willing to live in denial/neglect in various ways in order to 'do what's best' according to a Moral idea, not really based on practical context of how can I be best for myself
miranda To me as a single mother I have the idea that I need to sacrifice my own development for the development of my daughter. Meaning; all the money that comes in is for paying the bills and for her activities so she can play and learn
marlen and yep @blaz.cegnar that's rather a cool way to redefine it/look at it, where are we sacrificing life/every moment that we have to actually live to power up ourselves as systems, programs, patterns, and sacrificing the life/flesh for that, definitely cool to look at this word that way
miranda I have realized that I need to balance that more, reserve some money for myself
marlen interesting @miranda I think that's very common, I have no context based on my lack of parental experience, but! have you looked at whether that is experienced as diminished, limitation on your side? Ah ok ok yep
adam ah yes the burning of the flesh
valentin.rozman set the channel topic: Topic for today: The word Sacrifice
joanajesus @marlen in my case, I have seen people sacrificing their lives for other people but in the end they blamed other people for what happened to them, so it wasn't really an unconditional giving but rather to be seen as a martyr. In this I see that through this definition of sacrifice people/we are abdicating our own responsibility to create our lives, to give us direction, to become the best we can be.
marlen I recently watched this movie that is called 'Beatriz at dinner' and it can be looked at from this relationship to sacrifice, where in order for some people to make huge profits with building hotels, lots of people/environment had to be sacrificed in order to make that a reality, and then the emotions as in revenge, bitterness that stem from such 'sacrifice' leading to a rather dramatic outcome - won't spoil the movie - but this came up also when looking at the world-context and the outflows created out of such sacrifice as in killing/having to get rid of something, maim something for the sake of a benefit for a few - and how to not create an emotional outburst about that, considering how that's happening every single day in everything we do
blazcegnar we can ask ourselves how are we still sacrificing our life potential by repeating things that are having no beneficial consequence to us and our surroundings
marlen exactly @joanajesus the martyr-syndrome, can relate to as well, and fully agree with that, it does make you bitter and in my case it was more existing as an expectation that 'the more people can see that we SHOULD be sacrificing ourselves for the betterment of all, the more people will open eyes to reality...' but, it dosn't work that way, not by becoming a martryr or being a mother-theresa either. But instead yes, being the best we can be in everything we do, normally, in the system, with every relationship etc... no need to 'sacrifice' anything in that regard as in limiting onself 'for' something
dan Practically living sacrifice: letting go of a lower ideal for a higher ideal. And trusting myself to make that call in each moment.
Just a movement.
blazcegnar @dan would have to define lower and higher ideal
marlen I've also looked at parenting for example, how I've associated that to 'having to sacrifice 'my time' and 'my body' and 'quite some years of my life' in order to take care of another being completely' and how I've associated that in a negative way, so that's also a point to consider how many times we already make decisions within this starting point of 'I'll have to limit myself' instead of seeing it from the perspective of how will that assist to create myself, expand myself, learn new things about me, challenge myself. Etc.
valentin.rozman Generally I see that if we all want to prosper on a long-term every individual needs to sacrifice the short-term personal gains. Meaning to of course take care for your basic short-term personal needs, but then not to become too greedy and continue to accumulate assets for yourself that you do not need, but to invest own resources into activities that will change the outflow of the consequences for all in long period of time for the better.
blazcegnar I'd say self-benefitial vs all-benefitial ideal
or only-self vs all-benefitial
marlen yeah definitely dan, can consider what's been shared here based on creating such polarities of the higher as 'the good' and the lower as 'the bad' but with different names, so, we can instead look at it practically, walking that through more tangible examples to ground the word, so, do you have a situation you can relate to having used such consideration of the higher and lower and so ground the words?
miranda Yes @marlen can relate. There is definitely tension within me between my own needs and taking care of my daughter.
marlen that's then also what got me to consider that 'my own benefit' was the extreme of 'everyone's benefit' @blaz.cegnar and that's the trap as well, so not sure if you're referring to that, but that's the kind of logic I'd use to create this whole construct of 'I have to suffer, because everyone else in the world - majority - is suffering - type of thing, and in that justify my own limitation and lack of expansion/self creation
what have you considered in relation to that @miranda because based on what I've watched from the mothers here, it does take that time/effort/attention, so how to walk through it to not make it something conflictive, or is it about accepting the limitation for now? how have you looked at it?
dan Yeah, I see how realigning this, out of morality, and into best for all, or not, simply.
anna Sorry guys, my keyboard is fcuked agan and I can't type proper. So am only reading along.
marlen if you can, still ground it to a practical example dan, because otherwise even 'best for all' becomes too fluffly and ethereal, without actual definition of what that means, so here focusing on defining it
dan It's a yes or no.
I feel that for sure marlen!
I sacrifice my time to support others, maybe with a car ride or keeping the house clean...but is it really even a sacrifice? It feel more like a choice.
valentin.rozman Sorry to hear that @anna Hope that your keyboard will get well soon!
anna lol @valentin.rozman i thin it's dead
marlen exactly that's where the redefinition comes through dan, precisely, where we look at where and how we are perceiving things to 'feel like' we are limiting/sacrificing/having to give something up, based on creating negative and positive experiences - compared to how we can decide to rather look at things in a more understanding and considerate manner
miranda For me it was all about balancing out, letting go of expectations I had for my life and seeing and realize the enormous gift my daughter is. Meaning what I had opened within me to be the mother I am now. And all the opportunities that comes with living with her
marlen example, with parenting, we can decide to realize ok it does take my time, effort, sleepless nights, attention, etc. and I can decide to constantly see that as a sacrifice, a limitation, something I have to 'give up' and experience it in an emotional way - or I can decide to see all of these things as part of an understanding of what I have to yes, practically do, and take care of and 'give of myself' based on the decision taken of being a parent for example. I am speaking blindly here because I have no idea what it actually entails, but using it as a consideration of how I can approach this and any other thing that will require effort, challenges, dedication, not doing things I 'only enjoy' etc.
joanajesus when I asked myself now what is the redefinition of the word sacrifice, I saw the word sacred in it and I associated it to seeing others as sacred as I am, meaning, the value of our lives equally important. So sacrifice can be this openeness to another in our lives and acomodate another's needs. So here is to sacrifice what one would normally do to do something different (in order to take someone else or something else in consideration) but not necessarily a worse situation.
parenting is a great example where sacrifice can be lived in a away of expansion, where sacrifice can lead to create solutions
shame that @anna can't type on this chat!!
marlen yeah @miranda that's cool it's more of an embracing of the role and everything that it entails, and realizing that yep, one is no longer 'me, myself and I' only, I extended myself now to a daughter or a family, and so realizing that entails changes, so embracing the changes, challenges, points of expansion required for that as what 'our life' is about - and sure eventually with time as kids grow older, the 'me time' comes back, based on what I've observed hehe
that's an awesome redefinition @joanajesus thanks for writing that out
miranda yes, spot on @marlen
joanajesus cool @marlen it has opened up during this chat so glad we are all here!
marlen taking someone else into consideration, embracing another's life as your own and expanding to be co-existing with that, as a decision, as a choice indeed
so yes, we can't sugar coat things, we can still call things by their name, sure it will entail such 'sacrifice' in that sense, though reminding ourselves why we decide to do it and embracing it as part of that decision to for example be a parent - so that whenever the conflict emerges, we can go back to this sacred-reminder, the life of another, the life of something else that we are there to assist to develop - again based on the parenting example
I also had a conflict with for example having to take care of animals at a particular time every single day, faced this at the farm where I saw it as having to 'sacrifice MY time' to do that, and in that sure thing I had to face my selfishness related to taking care of other beings that cannot take care of themselves, so that was a cool learning experience and it wasn't easy pie thing to just 'embrace the task', it was a tough one and I still consider this is still a point for me to walk through/face considered I haven't yet taken care of another being by myself for a long time.
miranda You don't have pets @marlen?
marlen so that leads to realizing where am I placing myself, 'my time' as something that cannot be taken away/ruined with 'having to take care of someone else' - no @miranda by choice for now, I do have plants though, lol but very different to dogs or cats
and I've also gone through the 'I then have to have animals to face this point' because it's not something I genuinely want to do for now, who knows later, so also not making it a point of 'I must face my relationship with animals right now!' and turn it into a point
joanajesus so sacrifice is a choice - nice one! How we will live the word is a choice -- will we sacrifice ourselves as our expression or will we sacrifice an idea of how we think things ought to be, and therefore decide to live differently, take another approach to a situation e.g. parenting, time, family. If we look at aspects in our own lives that we are totally responsible for (e.g. body care, nutrition, self-preservation), these should be non-negotiable when it comes to our relationship with others, meaning, we shouldn't have to decide to either take care of our bodies or to care for our daughter's bodies. Sacrifice here could be to see how can we find a solution where both our needs are met (e.g. find a gym where both can have classes at the same time)
marlen awesome @joanajesus welly well said I like that
joanajesus I realised this especially when I am with family whereby at some point I thought I had to give up on myself in order to acomodate everyone's needs. but then I saw that it doesn't have to be a zero sum gae or either me or the others; through communication it's possible to find common grounds, so sacrifice could be as the time invested into finding out what solutions are available -- and it does take time and patience lol but it's worth it
marlen so it is indeed about how we can focus on practicality, what needs to be done, embrace it as part of what 'living in reality' entails with the decisions we make, and whenever we see something is sticking out as something we feel we are 'limiting' ourselves with, can bring again the common sensical consideration: example, having a kid implies yes, it will take time, money, effort, challenges, etc. so I decide to remind myself that I made this decision and live it the best possible way. Same with having for example a very demanding job, where we feel we are sacrificing 'our me time' to the job, well if we are doing it to get x amount of money then reminding ourselves, hey that's what I am aiming at here with this job, so there's no point in feeling limited/complaining or feeling like I'm sacrificing for it - it's embracing our decision and living it the best way
joanajesus *zero sum game
marlen yep cool @joanajesus finding that middle ground where 'everyone is considered' not going into the 'only me' or 'only them' extremes for sure
awesome! any other suggestions, ideas for redefining or approaching this word differently?
marlen K, for those that wanted to contribute but can't now like @anna the chat will be posted on the forum, so adding there is always an option as well !
valentin.rozman Thanks for reminding about that option @marlen
joanajesus @marlen the point about the very demanding jobs, I can relate that a lot as I see how often people in my team feel that they have to sacrifice their lives, their bodies and their families for the sake of a job in order to pay bills. Curiously I see this attiude more proeminent in women than in men, as if we have accepted that it is either being successful at work or at home.
marlen @joanajesus yep, can be a whole point to be looked at indeed, where at times sure there are no other options/ways, and I definitely suggest checking out the 'stay at home mother' life review that talks about these points, because it assists in seeing how this dichotomy is created for women especially on 'being a mother' only or 'being at job/having a career' etc - and the solutions shared for that are cool as well
blazcegnar I'd say a good way to live sacrifice is to sacrifice one's desire to experience the limited and repetitive feelings and emotion and replace that with experiencing self as/with the physical. Like I often play video games and in that experience excitement, but better than that is when I sacrifice that desire to rather explore physical touch with my girlfriend with a massage. So comparing that two choices the second one would be more beneficial to me and my surroundings.
joanajesus so here I see that a solution is to really redefine the sacrifice in us and to see how we are the ones participating in the sacrificing personality. I mean, maybe some days it's really impossible to leave work on time but when it becomes sistematic then people need to raise their voices in order to change the situation (e.g. the bigger picture would be lack of human resources and the solution is to hire more people).
marlen this is it https://eqafe.com/p/stay-at-home-mom-life-review
EQAFE - Self-perfection Interviews, Books & Music
Stay at Home Mom - Life Review
What did this woman face as a mother in the early years of being a stay at home mom but wanting to go back to work? Why did she initially look forward to being a stay-at-home-mom but want to go back to work after a time? What did this woman realize about the polarity she created between resistance to being a stay-at-home-mom and desire to go back to work, and what solutions does she propo... (249 kB)
joanajesus so the sacrificing personality can hide a point of responsibility that one isn't taking
marlen that's a practical consideration @blaz.cegnar sure, also considering not making the video-gaming a 'no no' as an extreme, but creating a balance in such decisions, that's cool
yep indeed @joanajesus all about assessing the situation in self honesty, if it's a personal complaint/demand or if it's definitely something that needs to be adjusted within the schedule/pay accordingly, for sure
joanajesus cool example @blazcegnar!
marlen any last examples guys?
joanajesus got to go guys, very cool to be back to the chats!!!
marlen thanks for sharing @joanajesus definitely cool contributions and enjoy the settling there
joanajesus thanks @marlen
blazcegnar yes, rather than making something a no-no and stopping it completely, a better way would be to look at what more beneficial/self-expanding thing can I do with that time and then learning to enjoy in that. Then new activities can replace the old when one realizes why and how they are more beneficial for self
marlen that's cool indeed @blaz.cegnar the expansion point
miranda Thanks marlen and blaz and all
marlen yep, cool! so let's leave it here and thanks for the sharings, see you guys on friday
valentin.rozman Thanks all and bye
blazcegnar bye all, enjoy