Mats, here to get help for a wikipedia-article...

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Mats40
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Mats, here to get help for a wikipedia-article...

Postby Mats40 » 11 Jan 2013, 19:05

Hey folks,

Im Mats from Sweden, and a hobby of mine is to write on wikipedia. Now I have published an article about Desteni, where I also have tried to describe Equal Money and other aspects. You can find the article here: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desteni

I appreciate good links, preferrably to established media, but also any other kind of help.

I wish you a good new year, by the way,

PEACE!

/ m.



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Anna
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Re: Mats, here to get help for a wikipedia-article...

Postby Anna » 12 Jan 2013, 09:28

Hi Mats.

Welcome to the forum

I suggest to open up your own introduction thread in the Introduction section. Suggest to also read through the introduction writings that has been done so far and consider sharing how you found Desteni and what specific videos and article were assisting and supporting you to see, realize and understand the message as a practical application in your day to day living.

And lastly: please read through the forum guidelines.

Regarding the point of the wiki, I read through it and I was actually busy posting a reply here where I translated and added what you have written sentence by sentence. I did so because virtually every sentence is factually inaccurate. Unfortunately I accidentally shut the tab I was writing in down and lost the reply. So here is a shortened version of that reply:

Mats, I'll be direct here:

Wikipedia pages are most often written because people either agree or disagrees with something and aim at being objective - but this page does in no way honor the objectivity that Wikipedia strive for. The gross inaccuracy of the wiki shows that you have not investigated Desteni at all. So that brings me to question of why you are even writing the wiki in the first place if you are not going to be accurate and instead make biased assumptions?

Here the some examples of the inaccuracy on the wiki page:

Desteni is not 'internet-based', we simply utilize the internet because as an effective way of establishing direct global communication.
Equality and Oneness is not a motto as an ideal or belief. It is a fact: existence is made of the same molecules and atoms and the earth requires equilibrium to sustain itself optimally. Humans are destroying earth through not honoring that equilibrium. That is what is meant by Equality and Oneness.
Desteni is thus also not an ideology and nor is Desteni 'strongly anti-capitalistic'. Suggest to get up to speed with the latest developments on the Equal Money System newsletter, as for example to read about the newly launched Equal Money Capitalism project.
The Desteni I Process is also not called or spelled 'Destini' I, or I Process'.

These examples merely cover the first five lines of the wiki. It is thus clear that the wiki is written at arms length and not by someone who has actually done their research in any way whatsoever. So I suggest to consider if you are serious about writing a factual wiki page. Because if you are not, and if you are going to make biased assumptions and present them as facts, then there is no point in us sharing links to get you up to speed. This also questions your starting-point which only you can know and be self-honest about.

You've been around Desteni long enough to do your own research. So if you are serious then I suggest to cross-reference your information here first and make sure that what you write is factual. If you are going to continue writing the wiki - I suggest that the Swedish Destonians get involved in correcting the inaccuracies immediately and that you in the future cross-reference the information first here. The Destonian wiki is growing extensively, so it is a cool source of information.

If you've got any further questions, don't hesitate to ask.



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Mats40
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Re: Mats, here to get help for a wikipedia-article...

Postby Mats40 » 12 Jan 2013, 17:23

I see your points. In any case, the article will probably be deleted because the lack of references to non-Destonian sites. So if there are no newspaper articles or something like that about the movement, no independent sources, then it is not much hope. It will probably last less than a week. So if you want Desteni, or Equal Money, on wikipedia, in Swedish or any other language, there must be non-Destonian references. If such things can be found and included, then the article has at least a chance to survive, and then one can think more about exactly how every word and concept is described...



niklas
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Re: Mats, here to get help for a wikipedia-article...

Postby niklas » 12 Jan 2013, 18:05

As Anna points out this article is overall inaccurate and misleading. It's as if I would write an article about quantum mechanics or Japanese language without having a degree or any experience in those fields. You have made misinforming claims about desteni/equal money in the past to which I have suggested to investigate/research desteni/equalmoney thoroughly before any such things - it's common sense. If this article stands, despite the referencing rules, I would ASAP like to together with the other Swedish Destonians correct the article.



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Anna
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Re: Mats, here to get help for a wikipedia-article...

Postby Anna » 12 Jan 2013, 19:15

I see your points. In any case, the article will probably be deleted because the lack of references to non-Destonian sites. So if there are no newspaper articles or something like that about the movement, no independent sources, then it is not much hope. It will probably last less than a week. So if you want Desteni, or Equal Money, on wikipedia, in Swedish or any other language, there must be non-Destonian references. If such things can be found and included, then the article has at least a chance to survive, and then one can think more about exactly how every word and concept is described...
Hi Mats.

There are no (as far as I am aware) non-destonian 'independent' sources of information about Desteni, because everything that has been produced so far has been made in fear, biased assumptions and explicit hate. This has included deliberate fabrications to slander and threats as well as direct misinformation where the sources have in no way investigated Desteni or what we are about. So until an actual 'independent' source comes along that dares to investigate Desteni in detail - we will simply not be on Wikipedia. Those who are serious and who dares to step beyond cultural bias and fear, will do the investigation and research. We have created our own wiki which anyone interested in Desteni can read if they so choose.



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Mats40
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Re: Mats, here to get help for a wikipedia-article...

Postby Mats40 » 12 Jan 2013, 23:07

Well, as I said it probably doesn´t matter much how the text is written. I always try my best to write in a responsible way and give both sides perspective, whenever there are controversial stuff with different opinions. I have improved the text a little bit since yesterday, but the main problem, as I said, is the lack of independent coverage of the organisation and/or Equal Money and/or the Destonians. Due to the lack of newspaper articles and that kind of stuff the only thing left to mention, which maybe, maybe, could justify an article about this topic, are the appearant "war of opinios" between the pro-Desteni-folks and the anti-Destini-folks, which as far as I have understood it goes on mainly on youtube and a few blogs. Because if an article on Desteni and Equal Money doesn´t mention this kind of sources, for the critique, there seems to be no other sources of reference except the blogs and youtube-channels by Desteni-members themselves. And I´m actually forbidden, more or less, to write articles about anything where the information is based mainly on the organisations own description of itself. As you know there is no Desteni, no Equal Money, no Bernand Poolman, nothing Desteni-like what so ever, on any wikipedia, English, French, Swedish, nothing. So it´s actually strange that the article after several days isn´t deleted yet. So... if you want to play a dirty trick with wikipedia, which actually isn´t allowed or recommended, you can always try to sneak in there, and put a few words here and there, to make it more pro-Desteni. That would either make the deletion faster or it would make the article look better. Or you could add a nice photo, or you could write something about the stuff I haven´t included because I don´t understand it. Such as the interdimenstional thing and other psychological-social themes.



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Mats40
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Re: Mats, here to get help for a wikipedia-article...

Postby Mats40 » 12 Jan 2013, 23:28

Yes, Anna, I have looked for independent sources of information/interviews/articles/research for some days but have found none. For your information, and so you understand wikipedia better, I can translate the discussion page so far:

"Desteni is appearantly a cult of some sort. It should be relevant, but I don´t know. It´s not on English wikipedia. In any case it has to be rewritten substantially so its not POV (POV is the opposite to neutral point of view) / To be relevant there should be some media attention. Deleted on English WP. / If independent sources are missing it should be deleted."

I think what he means by "not POV" is that is too much pro-Destini.



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KellyPosey
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Re: Mats, here to get help for a wikipedia-article...

Postby KellyPosey » 13 Jan 2013, 00:58

Well, as I said it probably doesn´t matter much how the text is written. I always try my best to write in a responsible way and give both sides perspective, whenever there are controversial stuff with different opinions. I have improved the text a little bit since yesterday, but the main problem, as I said, is the lack of independent coverage of the organisation and/or Equal Money and/or the Destonians. Due to the lack of newspaper articles and that kind of stuff the only thing left to mention, which maybe, maybe, could justify an article about this topic, are the appearant "war of opinios" between the pro-Desteni-folks and the anti-Destini-folks, which as far as I have understood it goes on mainly on youtube and a few blogs. Because if an article on Desteni and Equal Money doesn´t mention this kind of sources, for the critique, there seems to be no other sources of reference except the blogs and youtube-channels by Desteni-members themselves.
It’s not relevant if there are other sources of articles on desteni, if there aren’t, there aren’t, and if the page is removed because of it, it doesn’t matter. If you know you are required to have these sources and you don’t have it, then you should not be writing the article.

In terms of writing about Desteni and Equal Money and what it is, all the information is here to give an accurate assessment, so there is no excuse for writing inaccurate information.
And I´m actually forbidden, more or less, to write articles about anything where the information is based mainly on the organisations own description of itself. As you know there is no Desteni, no Equal Money, no Bernand Poolman, nothing Desteni-like what so ever, on any wikipedia, English, French, Swedish, nothing. So it´s actually strange that the article after several days isn´t deleted yet. So... if you want to play a dirty trick with wikipedia, which actually isn´t allowed or recommended, you can always try to sneak in there, and put a few words here and there, to make it more pro-Desteni. That would either make the deletion faster or it would make the article look better.
If you are ‘forbidden’ to write articles without other sources, then do not write this article. It is suggested to follow the rules of any site/organization one participate on, as you may cause unnecessary and unfortunate consequences, as we do exist in a system of rules with consequences.
Or you could add a nice photo, or you could write something about the stuff I haven´t included because I don´t understand it. Such as the interdimenstional thing and other psychological-social themes.
We utilize the group here that has been walking with Desteni for years to cross-reference with each other to make sure information is accurate. The message of Desteni is not understood by many, as it goes against all we’ve known and understood about ourselves and reality, because we have always lived as knowledge and information and never got down to the heart of actually investigating this reality to get an actual understanding, so that when we are faced with actual reality and common sense it doesn’t seem to make sense. Common sense is like an uncharted territory for humanity, and as such we cross-reference our information within the group, to ensure accuracy.
Thus suggest to either work with the Swedish speakers to cross reference for writing this page and if it is removed for lack of outside source so be it, or to simply remove the page.



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Mats40
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Re: Mats, here to get help for a wikipedia-article...

Postby Mats40 » 13 Jan 2013, 03:59

The message of Desteni is not understood by many, as it goes against all we’ve known and understood about ourselves and reality, because we have always lived as knowledge and information and never got down to the heart of actually investigating this reality to get an actual understanding, so that when we are faced with actual reality and common sense it doesn’t seem to make sense. Common sense is like an uncharted territory for humanity, and as such we cross-reference our information within the group, to ensure accuracy. Thus suggest to either work with the Swedish speakers to cross reference for writing this page and if it is removed for lack of outside source so be it, or to simply remove the page.
Yes, I know, that Desteni is not understood by many. Perhaps a few more will understand at least a little bit with a page on wikipedia. Wikipedia is, after all, one of the top sites in the world. So if you, for example, care about spreading the word. Then I would guess that its a good thing to be on wikipedia. I would also guess that once the article is there, everyone including pro-Desteni-people, can contribute. Perhaps write in other languages, perhaps creating separate articles for key concepts such as Equal Money and so on. But its perhaps only my opinon, that wikipedia is something good in this world, and that it would be nice to have more interesting articles there, about a variety of stuff, including this stuff. I have rewritten the text, so I suppose that its better now. There are several things missing still though, I know that, but I hope I also will live tomorrow. You may disagree that I have also included some of the criticism, but that´s just the way it works, one has to give room for both sides in cases like this. The first line goes like this now: Desteni is an international movement which is based on the belief in the possibility and desirability of an equal world. Then I go on, telling that the webbsite was launched 2007, Equal Money and related stuff, some other concepts, that the movement is controversial and has been called a cult, ending with some links. To the organisation, to the wiki, to some relevant youtube etc. All in all, I hope Im neither too pro-Desteni nor too anti-Desteni.



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Anna
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Re: Mats, here to get help for a wikipedia-article...

Postby Anna » 13 Jan 2013, 11:11

Yes I agree with Kelly. There is not really anything else to say. If Wikipedia articles are not allowed without 'independent' sources, then we simply won't have a Wikipedia page. This has nothing to do with whether or not we'd like to have a Wikipedia page. But as everyone else, we have to follow the rules.

I would like to mention though that we have been mentioned for example by Max Keiser. He posted one of my videos on his blog and also one of Lindsay's if I recall correctly about 2 years ago. There has also been written the following article about me as a quite random point and perhaps others have similar experiences: http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-563328

I do suggest however that you make sure you have done sufficient and thorough research before publishing anything about Desteni that is supposed to stand as 'fact', for example on Wikipedia. That does obviously not prohibit you from writing your own articles.

So I suggest that this discussion is done. If you'd like to participate on the forum, I suggest doing so from a starting-point of writing self-support. Otherwise we can discuss any points of collaboration in the Swedish group if/as required. Though if the page will be taken down anyway, there's no point in working on changing it.
Thanks for coming to the forum and discussing the point.




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