sunettedimensions set the channel topic: Self Victimization, Blame and refusing Support - who I am and how I've supported me through this to understand how to approach others - we start 5 after the hour
valentin.rozman “I would like a perspective how to best support a person who is addicted to self-victimisation, blaming and does not want to be supported. This person is also my flatmate.” - Thanks for remembering already yourself @sunettedimensions
garbrielle interesting eqafe recording from Anu, thanks for that @sunettedimensions
sunettedimensions No probs @valentin.rozman
Yes, a suggested listen for the up and coming EQAFE recordings - what to expect in the year 2018
sunettedimensions set the channel topic: Self Victimization, Blame and refusing Support - who I am and how I've supported me through this to understand how to approach others - WE START
anna Hi all
sunettedimensions First, @valentin.rozman before we look at others and go into projections - let's first reflect on ourselves
Let's share what we've personally gone through, if anyone can relate, when you faced a stage of going through blame, victimization and refusing support
valentin.rozman To give update of events: My flatmate went out two days before the New Years Eve to visit a guy on the other side of the city that she claims is in love with. But she did not manage to get to him since she met a boy that she met several months ago and he invited her to stay with him. So she has now been there already for 5 days. I visited her there yesterday and she was all in tears because she could not take anymore listening the fight between the guy and his mother yet she somehow was attracted to the whole situation. So despite me paying her a visit she did not want to go home with me. The guy also explained that on the New Years Eve they went out to watch the fireworks at midnight and she again become possessed and has dig with her nails into his skin. She later apologised that it was because of being angry at herself for not managing to get to the boy that she is love with.
kims Hi all
sunettedimensions For me, I remember going through a phase where I was in a tumultuous state of emotions, struggling with many issues at once and ended up turning everyone against me in my own head, refusing support cause it made me even angrier and more resentful, reminding me more of my problems than helping and in all this: circling in blame and projections. The point that woke me up form this was consequence - manifested consequence. Upon reflection - I realise because of the EXTENT of what I am in, it could only take manifestec consequence to 'wake me up' so to speak
anna Oh yes lol I've had such periods
sunettedimensions So, it has much to do with the extent of possession you're in whether support from others is going to be enough, OR whether you need to face it through actual events happening
@valentin.rozman I am not comfortable discussing your flatmate personally here. She is not here to speak for herself
viktorpersson I can relate to this happening with my partner sometimes – where there will be a point of blame and victimization – and then I do not want to receive support from my partner – because that would also devalidate my point of view
sunettedimensions so - in terms of this personal matter, please address it with your buddy or can ask us for a private / public recording to support. Here in the public chats @valentin.rozman we can reference from real life examples, look at the PATTERNS that show such as blame, victimixation and refusing support - but cannot go into detail such as you shared above. It is too personal at this stage and is more complex to deal with in your case on a personal level. So, the situation with your flatmate to be addresses one on one
talamon I also had a couple of months when I thought that now I need to work on relationship and myself and distanced myself from this chat and the group but whrn I realized I escape and lie to myself, I returned and felt ashamed by being possessed of 'this is my fight only and will win.. Soon...' - since then I committed to not do such and if difficulty arises, to realize, then support and this group is practical common sense.
garbrielle I can relate with a relationship i was in, where i was possessed extensively with a suppose unfair situation that i could not in my own integrity just get up and leave and thus blame him for everything, that he was at cause, and he was the reason i was so miserable, i through this time did not want to hear any support from anyone that was in a way where i actually had to look at myself, i was in so much emotion anger, fear, spite, that i felt like it was a mountain i had to climb to get to a point where i could actually do what i knew deep down i had to do was take care of all of the shit that was going on within and that i was living out in my erratic and destructive behavior
valentin.rozman Ok @sunettedimensions
sunettedimensions Interesting @viktorpersson can you share a practical example?
@valentin.rozman here in public chats- we take patterns and learn from it for ourselves and others - look at the basics of patterns and designs and what we can take from it on a personal level
Cool @talamon - yes, lol I did that once too - saying "I will do this BY MYSELF!" - lol did not go well at all...did work out for a while, but when push came to shove, found myself struggling indeed. Support all round moves mountains
anna I have also most often experienced this with my partner. To me, it feels like I can't trust him to be "on my side" if I'm already seeing myself as victimized and am blaming him. So I don't want to be vulnerable in front of him and therefore don't want his support.
kims @valentin.rozman I see in you a point that I recognise in me where I would want to fix everyone in my environment, and then when they didn’t listen I would become annoyed and take it personally
viktorpersson Yes – for example when there would be something that I want – and then my partner does not agree with my point of view – and I take that personally and feel attacked – then taking it to a point of blame and victimization – where I feel that it is my partners fault. In such a scenario my partner have many times tried to give my support – though it has been really difficult to accept – because accepting that support would mean that my blame and my self-victimization is invalid – that it is all fake in a way
valentin.rozman Well I see here a pattern of a drifter who gets attracted to people who are also drifters and then they are both drifting away together.
carlton My point of refusing support was to not ask for it, because I believed, who I would ask support from would judge me for what I had to say, which is a point of judging myself for what I'm facing, but now slowly becoming more comfortable with opening up and walking through this point.
sunettedimensions @valentin.rozman but first see into yourself first. TO be able to support others and understand them - have to understand self as such designs.
kims @valentin.rozman its a point of distraction
garbrielle so i through time started doing sf in the car,, at work, and whenever i got into a possessed type state and also writing more the issues i was going through, supported me a lot to calm down, ground myself, and find solutions day by day, slowly, but surely....even though it was difficult through that i found i had to decide for me that i was going to stop my inner turmoil and find solutions for myself, aligning with the principles of life - doing what is best and changing to stand as that example, once i walked that point and proved it over time, the whole situation changed for me personally and i was able to see more clear in what direction i was going to walk that was not only best for others, but for me as well.
anna It is also that, if one were to accept the support, it feels like it is the same as then condoning the "wrong/bad" behavior lol - that's the fear and justification I'd expeirence.
valentin.rozman Yes @kims, seeking distraction in order not having to face self.
marlen @valentin.rozman I can relate to that position of focusing on others, but I found that that is an indication that I'm not focusing enough on myself and there are things that I have to actually work on before even placing my eyes to consider supporting others , so there's the savior syndrome that I've identified with it, being the one that is seeing the problem or is aware of it, yet have to also let go when it's non of my business essentially to do something about it
sunettedimensions Cool practical example @viktorpersson
talamon Possessed by doubt and complete self-disempowerment got struck by the conclusion that if I alone do something, then it is only valid and real, otherwise I was 'lifted up' and later realized this is excuse as what matters is physical change, effectiveness, understanding and prevention
sunettedimensions Nice @garbrielle - so was a mixture of consequence and support from others eventually that moved you
marlen I can relate to an old memory from when I was 3 years old and I blamed my parents for 'losing me' at a fun park, when they came back they were giving me stuff to eat and were asking forgiveness and explaining what happened, which was I wanted to do things my way and didn't see that they were leading behind me. So in that I threw the worst tantrum ever to them, and refusing to get their food/support, because I wanted them to suffer for having lost me, a righteousness thing that understood no reason
tormod Cool topic for sure / i am facing a fear of losing my interigty , honesty and pureness lol
marlen and yes have also had the pattern of believing I have to 'do things myself' but for a few years I've known that pattern that only prolongs the process, so now I do reach out for support instead of believing that I don't deserve it or I don't want to bother others.
sunettedimensions Nice @talamon
kims Yes I can relate Marlen, I have held on to a memory of being left by my parents “who didn’t care about me” and I didn’t have all the facts, only what my 5 year old imagination conjured up
garbrielle yes, the support came through eventually where they were like we can not go any more in terms of everything they had already shared, they did their part so to say, I had to decide, and through what i had gone through in my own consequence, what i created, and what i saw of myself, the worst that i have seen in a long time, i had to make that decision, so it came down to a choice - keep going as is and go with the mind programming or stand up and start moving myself, taking responsibility, and just living it....it was quite a point and realization, i still remember the place where i decided to go with life/self
tormod I do reach out - have done so .... very unconditionally also since beeing part of psychiatry care
kims Yes me too Tormod!
marlen yep @kims exactly very similar, and wasn't listening to reason, the role of the victim and at that time I did want them to suffer for that, not making peace with it, so there was the power of making them feel guilty for it as something that I thought was was they 'deserved' - not sure if this is the topic but that came up
garbrielle place = equal actual physical location
valentin.rozman @marlen sure and that is why I do not focus much on her. For example I did not visit her solely because I was worried about her but because I wanted to go out running because my body needed recreation. And since she called me a day before and gave me the address where she was staying, I decided to run there and back for a change. When I arrived there and she procrastinated to leave and wanted me to wait for 20 minutes, I did not give her that chance because I know that such waiting can get stretched to several hours. So I left very soon as it was my initial plan and have taken directive principle for my life, not allowing anyone to pull me into drifting with them.
kims Yes I can relate Marlen, in fact I held on to the victim character all my life really - it still plays out in me when I allow it to
miranda I can see it's easy for me to blame myself, to victimize myself and to not support myself in it, more to hold on to it for to long.
carlton I also played the victim within that, to the point of believing that I wasn't at fault for what I was facing, and at times felt that I didn't need support, the other person did.
marlen cool valentin for the context
carlton but also then realized that the reason I felt I didn't need support was because I wasn't supporting myself, and so when I started supporting myself, I started seeing my fault in the matter/problem that I was facing.
miranda I am aware of me blaming myself with judgments, not supporting myself and when it came up last week in a situation, I stopped myself, saying that 'I can do better than this' and wrote it all out.
joanajesus Hi guys! I also notice this pattern primarily in moments with my partner where I go into the self-victimisation possession and reject another's support - but I have seen time and time again that the solution is to drop the pride/ego (it helps imensly to take a deep breath to let it go) and to help myself to talk with another, to accept his support/his words because the cool thing in agreements is that very rarely we go into a possession the two of us, so the other can stay stable and calm to reverse the possession.
marlen quite a relevant observation @carlton how one has no reference for 'being supported' as in 'refusing support' if one doesn't have a relationship with the word support at all
viktorpersson Yes that is cool @joanajesus
it is pride/ego/hurt that has to go
marlen yeah indeed it is a pride thing to recognize @joanajesus and so let go of it, can be redefined as a word in itself, which doesn't stand for righteousness and seeing no other reason
talamon Thanks, @sunettedimensions, grateful for DIP courses, Eqafe and all of your and the group's support! When I do see that I should ask for something specific - usually can find it in Eqafe or actually answer to myself - or often very recent Eqafe interviews brings up the point!
carlton Yes Marlen
valentin.rozman Has the chat stuck? The last message that I se is from 20:32
viktorpersson No, seems like nobody is writing
sunettedimensions Sorry all, logged out for a moment
am back in!
sunettedimensions Alrighty - so, what would everyone say has been the greatest support when noticing you are in such possession?
valentin.rozman it actually got stuck on my side several weeks ago where others were also moving slow and then it suddenly got updated with a lot of new messages.
marlen put one's guard down, being humble and embracing the support or seeking it out
garbrielle keeping up with eqafe
Sharing with others
And of course Eqafe
viktorpersson To breathe through and let go of hurt/blame and to let myself lose
garbrielle balance self care and moving yourself to get the points moving
sunettedimensions For me, what's been happening over time when I REALISE I am RESISTING another's support, is I can only resist it for so long, cause this voice within me has become stronger saying "listen to them, take a moment, slow down, you know what's best to be done here" - but it has taken some time to get to the point of giving up the fight of refusing support from others. And the hardest way was through consequence where I eventually realized if I don't take a moment, give the support a go - more shit is going to come my way
miranda Stopping myself within it, seek for support; buddy, blogs, find a supportive word, Eqafe
carlton Listening to old interviews
talamon And definitely never fall into the 'noone can understand me, or its so trivial/dark/__placeholder__, thus I alone must deal with this'
sunettedimensions So, all in all, I did learn the best through consequence to eventually get me to the point of stop being stubborn and going into blame / self victimization and instead become humble - to quantify my process my listening to support instead of learning through consequence my own mind and life can dish out
garbrielle working with humility - definitely supportive
sunettedimensions So, for everyone who can relate to this reading this chat, best is to check in with self and see where you are at in these patterns - to reflect in a way where, if you notice that you tend to refuse support still - take a breath and step back and challenge yourself to see where life may take you if you'd take a chance on the support and give it a go
Do any here still see where you may have trigger points still in your own mind / life that you can work on?
When it comes to going into blame, victimization and refusing support?
dan Um.. yes.
valentin.rozman In my environment I experience little to none attempts of anyone trying to support me so I would rather see if there would be more experienced Destonians living around me and supporting me with their perspectives.
carlton The point of thinking this conversation is for a man.
anna I actually sometimes take the support in, but don't show it to the person (primarily my partner), to not give him the satisfaction. So I'm like: "Yeah he's right... but I'm not going to show him that!"
valentin.rozman Thus what is left for me to support myself the best way I can and living alone also has a benefits of having enough peaceful time for reflection.
garbrielle lol anna, that's fucked up and can relate
kims I find my partner offers me tremendous support, just through being who he is in moments- and he isn’t a Destonian @valentin.rozman
valentin.rozman @anna do you at least later give him some credit?
You are so lucky @kims
carlton but now realize I can reach out to some of the guys.
as well as my buddy
kims No not really @valentin.rozman - those in your life support you if you were to just see it
anna Yes @valentin.rozman
kims Even those that challenge us offer support
There is a gift there @valentin.rozman haha
miranda agree @kims
sunettedimensions I do see in my world, a subtle point where an individual offers perspective / suggestions and I sometimes go into a slight hesitance / impatience when it comes to a specific topic we discuss - already gearing myself to 'not listen cause they can't be right' lol so will be more endearing in catching these moments, slowing down and actually giving the individual and moment some time - cause that very point coming up in me shows it is a specific point and I am going into resistance cause I know I am being challenged with comfort zones!
So, a different dimension on facing blame and refusing support to look into for me
Nice @carlton glad to hear
So, we can all take with us tonight to also look out for some trigger points we can still work with and on as a reminder of this pattern comes up within self
All, thank you very much for being here and supporting!
valentin.rozman That is true @kims, we all learn from each other many things
talamon Even strangers at most random places and times can share support, if I open up to real and direct conversations and communication - sometimes like our real beings come through and us, as minded beings are like catching up, so better to be as much present and open as possible
sunettedimensions Yes @valentin.rozman support is everywhere in the physical in different forms
kims Yes talamon - I see that too
sunettedimensions Oh agreed @talamon!
kims Cool @valentin.rozman most definitely
sunettedimensions Ive had amazing conversations with strangers I've learned a lot from about myself through them!
kims Me too
carlton Yes @talamon
sunettedimensions Thanks for being here this night all, speak again soon!
Have a good day!
kims Bye all thank you !
sunettedimensions Bye for now from me!
viktorpersson Thank you!
carlton Thanks all bye
miranda Thanks all, bye
dan very cool topic tonight, thanks all, just now caught up. Breathe, be slow, humble and learn from every expression!
valentin.rozman For example I get out running in the nature and the trees support me with the word PATIENCE since they just stay on the same spot all their life while I am so luck to have the legs and go wherever I want on this world.
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