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Does process mean something?

Posted: 31 Jan 2019, 23:23
by Raúl
I ask this question, because I just listened to this interview ... rgy-part-4
and... this interview made me feel... I don't know I imagined myself not ever again enjoying anything, not being able to "express" myself the same way, not having goals, not creating energy... I am just used since I am was a child, since I grew up, I created this process in me where I had some desires, for example I want to play guitar as good as possible and play in front of people, I want to laugh with friends, enjoy things in my life, and this interview for me meant total absense of energy, and that is like... death, like if I had died in this life, like if I did not have more motivation, like if if I went through that road I would not have goals, I don't even know if I would want to improve, if I lived total absense of energy I would just die and I didn't like the idea... it's like I want to express something in my life yet, there is something I am looking for, or there is some fun I can have and share with people, I can have great experiences, I am going to have them! But this interview meant that everything I'll ever do is for energy so therefore it will be less than what I am, even if I have this goals in my mind... they are less than what I am... I am right here at this point and I just couldn't accept it, like I don't want to accept it, like I really feel there is something cool awaiting for me in my life

What should I do? If I accept that interview... I won't have aaaanything... and I like having some things and sharing them with people, I like when people enjoy with me, for example I am now imagining me playing with a band of friends in front of some people interested in us, it's just cool! If I had no energy nothing of it would exist, and not only about that, about anything! I would die! Or my goals would die... this experiences I have...

I don't know, I just started saying to myself that I am in purpose because I want to have the best potential for my energy, not in a greedy way, just like taking care of myself, for myself to be healthier and more expressive and share that in my life, I am not in purpose to die... if that was it then I would have nothing else to express...

I feel if I work hard for my goals I will achieve them, and this is motivation and something cool for me... I am not sure if I should say that I am commited to my process, when in fact I don't like the core message of desteni/eqafe... like I even got a bit angry you know? Like if it was saying that my whole existence is a lie and there is nothing for me... what do you think?

Re: Does process mean something?

Posted: 31 Jan 2019, 23:41
by Raúl
It's like if I was here more to control energy rather than to not exist in energy in absolutely any way...

Re: Does process mean something?

Posted: 01 Feb 2019, 21:19
by Gabriel
The core message of Desteni is that all Life is One and Equal and that everyone can Birth their potential as Life, through a process of stopping their participation in thoughts, feelings and emotions to discover that these are not expressions of 'Life' but designed and preprogrammed 'systems' to keep you busy and distracted untill your last breath.

We are here to support those who are ready to HEAR, who are insterested in self-honesty, self-forgiveness and who are READY to take self-responsibility.

Re: Does process mean something?

Posted: 01 Feb 2019, 21:54
by Raúl
I just can't see the difference between my expression and feelins, I don't know if I understand it and I am just making things hard for myself, or if I don't understand them at all. I saw an interview about Jimmy hendrix through the portal and he talked exactly about what I am taking about, he didn't say: hey! Don't enjoy music! Because it's pointless positive energy not one and equal with yourself that will inevitably create regret one day to you! He in fact inspired me, to live this thing that I express with art and share it, and if the message of desteni is that there should be 0% of that... I am not sure if I agree, or if it is my moment to be here walking my process. How do you know when you express yourself playing guitar or singing that you are your expression and not having a fake feelin? And, if what you feel in those moment were something you can live in your whole life in all interactions with people as jimmy hendrix told me, how do you know it is expression and not a feelin? I just can't, I won't, deny it, this is how I genuinely feel right now at my process

Re: Does process mean something?

Posted: 01 Feb 2019, 23:38
by joe kou
it seems that there may be a few things to look at within how you see 'the core message of desteni' - as though you see it as taking something away from you or suppressing you in some way.

If you enjoy playing guitar and singing - cool. The question here would then be - can you still enjoy it if nobody ever heard your music?
If you enjoy creating art such as paintings - cool. Can you still enjoy it if nobody else likes or appreciates the art you make?

When looking at what is a positive energy experience versus an expression one of the key giveaways is who you would be when it is just you and that expression - where it is not being done to prove a point, or to gain attention. another way to spot an energetic experience is that it often leads to a 'low' when the happy feeling is gone. with expression it is simply a part of you - as you are - there isn't something to 'maintain' and you don't get 'tired' of it like you do when it is just an energy experience - it is more like a moment of you releasing your judgments and personal beliefs and allowing expression to emerge. that is how i see this aspect of it, at least.

Re: Does process mean something?

Posted: 02 Feb 2019, 00:31
by YoganBarrientos
Hi Raul,
I would say Desteni is a cool group, and you should challenge yourself to read more of the material and listen to more interviews and take them in as a whole. Yes Positive Energy is bad, should be stopped. No you won't feel dead inside. And YES you have to learn how to motivate yourself without energy. This is process. Being someone independent of energy. Doing what you have to do. Like you are a father and feel dead tired but need to take of your kid, then you move yourself to do it. If you need positive energy to motivate yourself, know you are limited and inferior. And also don't pretend you don't have negative energy and a monster side to you. You do have the negative energy, including anger as you just said. Stop all such emotions and feelings. And learn to motivate yourself through and with and as the physical. It is a self-movement.

If you want to learn what self-expression is then start with self-movement. Start with stopping all positive and negative energies within you, and then MOVE yourself to do something/anything. Prove to yourself you don't require energy to move or decide. Prove it. Then you will know that its indeed possible. Be the proof. Only you can show it to yourself.

Energy is inferior in every way to the Physical. The physical is the true source of Life, of Expression.

Re: Does process mean something?

Posted: 02 Feb 2019, 00:48
by Anna

Here's my two cents:

I agree with Joe. The first point I would examine, is the initial reaction you had when listening to the recording - you can even listen to it again. Because in this there's a subtle blame and fear coming up of "Is Desteni saying that I can't enjoy things anymore??" and in this in itself there's a point of seeing Desteni or the message through the recording as a moral authority telling you what you can and should be doing, and through this reaction comes up the signature of the rebellious teenager saying "You don't get to tell me what to do!"

So when you listened to the recording, there were specific words spoken that you reacted to, and then you created a split towards the message inside yourself, to get away from it, seeing it as a threat basically, as someone trying to take something away from you. But have a look: If playing music is a genuine expression within you, can anyone ever take it away from you? Or do you actually fear having to admit to yourself that something you've previously given a lot of value, perhaps not have the value you wanted it to have?

This is something I for sure can relate to. And I actually have a recent example of this: In my process, what I feared losing was "stimulation" which is exactly the same as "positive energy", simply from a different perspective or vantage point, meaning: to be stimulated is to feel moved/that something moves me/moves within me. I could not imagine who I'd be without stimulation. I felt like I'd die if I didn't have stimulation. That my life would be meaningless, if no one was there to applaud me. And in that moment of realization, I backed out of a breakthrough moment. I crawled back into the hole in my mind from which I came. And it's taken me several years to move myself back to that point.

So the other day I was listening to a recording where they talked about how we tend to want stimulation while for example doing the dishes, like wanting to listen to music, to better get through it - due to having created a negative relationship to doing dishes. And I did do that. The next time I was about to do the dishes, I deliberately did it with no music or podcast or tv-series in the background, and low and behold: it was completely perfectly fine. I didn't miss out on anything, it wasn't boring. I had created a "need" for stimulation by creating a relationship of negativity and lack towards doing dishes, and THAT'S where the positive experience came from, ironically so.

So when you stop living for energy, and start living for a real expression of life in/as yourself (which is a distinction you develop over time, as you come to trust yourself more), you actually come into REAL enjoyment - an enjoyment that is self-created and self-directed, that you KNOW is not simply a product of cultural bias or memories that you've attached to certain point. It's like Cypher in the Matrix movie who can't stand facing the reality of himself and he would rather compromise what's best for life to retain his experience in an illusion of living. Isn't that absurd? We'd destroy life in an attempt to feel more alive?

So it's not really about playing music or not playing music. For one person, their desire for music might be driven by a deep-seated projection of fame tied to insecurity. The positive experience they derive from playing music, stands in direct correlation with a deep negative experience of lack. That is not a supportive starting-point to have. That same person can change their starting-point in relation to music and make it something supportive. For another person playing music is a direct connection to them expressing their being, because they've cleared their beliefs and desires in relation to it, and have therefore effectively "freed" themselves to be real and authentic in relation to music, they know who they are and why they do what they do - and it isn't simply because it makes them feel good, but because they know it supports their beingness to come through.

Make sense? It's about WHO YOU ARE in what you do.

Re: Does process mean something?

Posted: 02 Feb 2019, 01:08
by Raúl
You brought cool points Joe, I do sometimes feel like it is repressing. Like if my experience had to be a feelin because it is cool, something like that.
"Can you still enjoy it if nobody ever heard your music? Can you still enjoy it if nobody else likes or appreciates the art you make?" Thanks for the perspective, in first place it is my expression, absolutely alone, and what I find in there, through my own sound, and how I sense myself, then I share that with people, and it's cool, because I in first place think it is cool, and when I share it it's now cool for 2 people. What happens is that I easily get missleaded in there, like if I identified myself with the feedback I am getting, rather than with the experience being real in itself, and it's cool to look at this because there is something that have kind of made me feel guilty in some sense, like if I was not being absolutely honest, and I see that this has happened because of the way I react to the feedback, and since I am getting ready to sing to larger audiences this relationship I would like to get to know. The balance between accepting the feedback and remaining true within my expression, I don't know if this does even exist, it must.

"When looking at what is a positive energy experience versus an expression one of the key giveaways is who you would be when it is just you and that expression - where it is not being done to prove a point, or to gain attention". It's interesting because this expression it has been just who I have always been, so in a sense I am expressing nothing new. But I my practical life, when it does happen I do use it to prove a point, like, you see? You do are poooosiiitiiiveee. Like if in my life I sometimes felt unexpressive, and when I released myself I went to the opposite experience this time because of the friction creating a lot of ideas and believes and positive feelins, that do in fact feed the other side of my mind. In relation to gaining attention, it's what I described, that balance, that turns the enjoyment to a matter of gaining, to be superior, and all that shit, that does not have to be the experience itself, but what we make as ego of it, because of competition, because of how we treat the virtues we have within ourselves, and the war, and the fear, and so much more from that point of absence of equality.

This last point you mention interesting because, is it natural that it leads to a low because of the intensity of your expression? And the nature of the moment itself? Or is on the other hand as you say the proof that it was an energy experience as a feelin? Maybe we do have to go to that low in fact, but we are accepting it because we have no attachment and we just let it go and we find balance again after a high/low. It's just theories my point is, I do get tired, not like exhaausted, but I do release energy, and I am not sure if you don't perceive yourself to release energy in those moments because you are just releasing a few. Or maybe it is that because of the state of your mind you have a lot of physical substance and you can release it without even feeling a low. But I myself do release energy to the point where I get tired of it, in the sense that I need to rest if I want to be able to feel it again. But, it depends because if I am having a good day, I could be all the day doing it without getting tired, and liking it all the time, so I don't know.

I have never known Bernard but, what would he probably say? This is a mind polarity. And this leads me to the point of, did Bernard sing? If he did, how was it? How exactly did this relation between expression and feelin work in him? Specially in the context of art

I have sometimes imagined this because this is an important part of myself, as a man and as a musician, and the conclution I have always gone to is that he had such a relationship with himself that he was full of his own physical substance, no mind, and if he decided to sing (I am just imagining it) he would be able to do it and not get tired. Even if, if you forced him to sing for a lot of time, he would probably end up feeling something, or getting a bit tired or something, but I am sure he would be able to recover from it. And maybe not only that, but because of the kind of person he was, the moment he sang and his expression came through, it would be in such a way that it would be fresh and always new. Maybe not eternal, because one just can not be eternally fresh and new when you are expressing yourself, because of the nature of how expression is, but maybe his balance supported him recover from those moments in case he felt some kind of sensation out of place within him, like attachment, or certain ideas creations. What I mean is that to be eternal he would have to never ever again express himself, and this is the idea that I really don't like about desteni's core message. Because, yes, maybe when you do not express yourself for a while, once you do it, it is new and fresh and cool! But in the current moment of my life I am living I am choosing to express myself, to live at least now that I have the chance, and express this that I feel. So I think I am choosing to feel myself while being honest and humble, rather than not feeling myself, which is what is implied in the very idea of 0 mind, at least for me. It is very easy, for me, or for people I don't know, to look at a person who is feeling and just say Hey! That is a mind polarity! Because you are cool! And if I accept this, I don't live. So I prefer to not make a fool of myself and be not only cool, but 100% cool, and then my goal is to remain humble and real within that if I can, and this is what I want desteni to support me with, rather than with not being cool because it is a feelin which is positive that manifests the negative blablabla.

These are my thoughts now, just wanted to share, thanks for the cool points.

Re: Does process mean something?

Posted: 02 Feb 2019, 01:34
by Raúl
Anna, it's a part of me that feels like won't stop existing even if I tried, it's something nobody can take away from me, only I myself can take it away, through the words of other people or things in this world. But, is this certain thought I had my true expression, or is it bad positive energy that should be stopped? My initial reaction to this is, how would I stop that?! I would become a zombie. And I say this in relation to Yogan's words because, I don't believe it to be energy, but who I already am. Like, to go against that means going against my very self and then not expressing my expression, which to sing is something which is not cool, because when you sing you want to sing cool! If not why even sing? If you were absolutely 100% free energy you could just go to a cave and sing to yourself for the rest of the eternity, but I don't believe life to be that within ourselves. So what should I do, believe a person saying to me that it is bad energy? Or believe a person who says that it may be a genuine part of me and in that case, nobody can take it away from me?
My answer, if I look within myself, it's that it is who I already am, it is myself, very genuine, and cool.

Anyway what you imply here with these two questions Anna: "If playing music is a genuine expression within you, can anyone ever take it away from you? Or do you actually fear having to admit to yourself that something you've previously given a lot of value, perhaps not have the value you wanted it to have?" It's something very cool, like, don't cease to exist because you are alive, express yourself, but don't give it any value because it hasn't it, accept that, and so the question here is, can that be done? Or are we forced to choose between yogan's side of, absolutely no energies! Or hannah's side of, express yourself genuinely while you are alive!

So, well, this is the point: "you actually come into REAL enjoyment - an enjoyment that is self-created and self-directed, that you KNOW is not simply a product of cultural bias or memories that you've attached to certain point". For Yogan, this doesn't exist, for Anna, it does. For me, I think it must be both, doesn't it? And I mean it, both, fully.

Re: Does process mean something?

Posted: 02 Feb 2019, 01:40
by Raúl
And with no fear.